Copper - Accuracy

[Dave_45]

I’ve found the dyed in the wool stalkers up north are all pleasantly surprised when I shoot with them and mention I shoot copper. An awful lot of people bad mouth copper with almost zero experience of it. Fact is it’s the right bullet in the right place just like lead.

A pal of mine , he’s moving on in years now, his mantra is , if it’s lead it’s dead

He’s has watched me shoot deer now for some years , the past two with copper ….

Only I knew I was using copper…

He did some back pedalling

 

[jimmer.13]

How are the Flat Earth Society meetings going these days?
I’m 20 plus years in with copper bullets and would consider it a retrograde step to go back to lead. The majority of mishaps that occur can be traced back to poor shot placement or inappropriate choice of bullet. The same happens with lead bullets believe it or not! Can I ask how many deer you have yourself shot with copper or non lead ammunition?

A bit rude chap.

I expressed an opinion as to personal experiences and that personally I don’t rate copper ammunition.
So I prefer to carry on using lead as for the reasons I have stated.
Calm down sweat heart take a deep breath and relax.
We don’t all have the same views ,opinions and experiences.
I’m delighted copper works for you and that it makes you very happy.
You just carry on doing your thing and I’ll do mine.
Bless you

 

[hedge hunter]

I've yet to speak to anyone that is satisfied, never mind impressed, by the accuracy of copper heads.

Even the most accomplished hand loaders/competitive shooters have been struggling to achieve 1MOA consistently with hand-loaded copper.

Seems like the only people who are keen on you shooting copper are those that have a financial interest in you shooting copper?

I do have one very accomplished stalker/hand-loader friend who says he has had reasonable success with cup & core bullet heads which have a traditional guilding metal jacket and a zinc alloy core instead of a lead core. But I do wonder if you'll get lead-like fragmentation from the zinc alloy core, whereas obviously one of the main selling points of monolithic copper is that is stays in one piece...

Are we any closer to copper ammunition that is as accurate as the lead ammunition it is meant to replace?

R.

I used too think the same but use yuw tree in a 243 8 twist and the accuracy is very good

 

[Selous]

A bit rude chap.

I expressed an opinion as to personal experiences and that personally I don’t rate copper ammunition.
So I prefer to carry on using lead as for the reasons I have stated.
Calm down sweat heart take a deep breath and relax.
We don’t all have the same views ,opinions and experiences.
I’m delighted copper works for you and that it makes you very happy.
You just carry on doing your thing and I’ll do mine.
Bless you

Not meant to be rude at all, merely gently poking fun! Apologies if you have taken it harder than intended!
The trouble is that a lot of folk who denigrate copper bullets have never used it and take rumour and urban legend as fact. I’m just trying to scope out how much experience you actually have with them with a view to evaluating what has gone wrong . If you can recall the details it can be very helpful. Hopefully we can then all learn what has worked and what has not worked so we can all avoid reinventing the wheel and move forward together!

 

[Heym SR20]

Copper not working?

Are you shooting Winchester Copper ammo? It has a very poor reputation

Are you shooting, or is your experience based on the first generation of copper bullets - the original Barnes or Hornady GMX. These were designed for large tough big game being shot by smaller and / or very high velocity magnum rifles so did expand as well as might be expected on British deer which generally are much lighter bodied than deer and antelope found elsewhere.

Are you trying to shoot a too long bullet in a slow rifle twist. 100gn Copper in the 243 or 60 plus gn in 22-250 or 140 / 150 gn in 270 win?

Forget bullet weight, concentrate on bullet length and drop down a weight or two. 243win shoots an 80 or 85gn Copper bullet very well.

Copper bullets kill by cutting a wound channel right the way through the animal. The kill by penetration much more like an arrow or cross bow bolt.

Forget the idea of explosive expansion and lots of fragmentation with a lung shot like you used with a soft SST type bullet.

If you want such expansion and messy carcass use the Geco Zero, S&B Blue Synergy etc. Zinc Cored bullets. They don’t work as well as the lead bullets of old. I think these are dead end in terms of technology. They still contaminate the carcass with metal fragments and don’t have any benefits over a decent monolithic.

 

[Pete6.5]

There is another group that don't like copper bullets and that's the people that just don't like the extra cost.
I find copper more accurate but I think on average lead was a bit better at putting deer down quicker especially at range.
I will continue to use lead free because it makes selling tons of venison a bit easier.
I also believe there is no safe level of lead in food.
(He comes the comment that I've eaten lead shot game all my life and it's made no difference)

 

[Scotty99]

The main issue people have with accuracy when going from lead to copper bullets is that the bullet itself is longer and the additional length can create instability if the imparted spin isn't fast enough.

Totally agree, what a lot of people don’t understand is when moving to copper you need to go down in bullet weight.

So if you are shooting 150 grn bullets in your .308 you should go down to 130 grn in copper, because as you say copper is less dense than lead and therefore needs to be longer to achieve the same weight and longer bullets may well not stabilise as well.

 

[hedge hunter]

I too was sucked into the copper is crap it's no good ect.until I tried it not too long ago and was amazed how accurate it is brilliant. You need the 8 twist barrels on the 243 though. All I use is the yew tree bullets.well happy

 

[Ronin]

The reason why copper is so accurate (or lathe turned solids) is there is no jacket and no lead core - therefore almost zero concentricity issues with deformed jackets from the manufacturing and reloading process.

 

[Heym SR20]

There is another group that don't like copper bullets and that's the people that just don't like the extra cost.
I find copper more accurate but I think on average lead was a bit better at putting deer down quicker especially at range.
I will continue to use lead free because it makes selling tons of venison a bit easier.
I also believe there is no safe level of lead in food.
(He comes the comment that I've eaten lead shot game all my life and it's made no difference)

Extra Cost?

This is a complete irrelevance as far as I am concerned. The additional cost using factory loaded ammo is about £1.50 to £2 per deer. So the additional cost of a typical days stalking is increased by less than a cup of coffee.

I was talking with a friend who was whinging about the cost of copper bullets. With lead ammo he just takes the backstrap and hindquarters of a roe, and disposes of the front end because of shot damage. When I pointed that with the Fox, HIT or Peregrine in 223, 243 or 7mm I rarely have damage the prevents taking the vast majority of the meat off the front end. And can do so in the knowledge that it is not contaminated with metal fragments. On a Roe buck, that is two good meals for a family of three or four. He is now starting to use copper.

These days £10 hardly buys enough meat from the butcher or supermarket for a decent stew for one meal.

And if the extra £1.50 is the difference between turning a carcass into cash or not then the £1.50 is becoming £20, £50 or more depending on size of carcass and price from dealer.

*PPU .308 SP ammo £122 per 100 from Kranks. Federal or Geco soft points about £30 per box of 20. Ie £1.20 to £1.50 per round.

Fox Lead free 308, £55 to £65 per box of 20 depending on retailer. Ie about £3 per round.

 

[Dr.Dolittle]

Copper bullet accuracy. Accuracy or precision?

When discussing accuracy the shooting community is likely referring to precision.

 

[timbrayford]

There are two schools of thought about monolithic bullets.

1) the naysayers who believe their 2nd amendment rights are completely violated because someone has suggested that they move away from lead bullets. They are stuck in the belief that lead is a perfectly safe material have chewed the lead paint of their childhood cot and toys. They never want to use non lead and at the same time pour scorn on everyone else.

They will seen have groups being posted on the accuracy of monolithics. These of course are created by AI, not statistically significant and that BCs of monolithics would never allow such performance.

They also believe that they are totally capable of shooting sub MoA groups with any bullet or brand of ammo in their rifles, and that of course you need sub 1/2 MoA accuracy to be able to shoot any deer, especially if shooting them at short distances of 500m, which of course they do all the time.

2) those who actually use monolithic bullets and find that they shoot and kill well and will continue to use them.

Not being a sanctimonious guardian reader I don't have any objection to lead cored bullets. I use Barnes TTSX instead of nosler accubonds because they are marginally better in my rifle

 

[Heym SR20]

Not being a sanctimonious guardian reader I don't have any objection to lead cored bullets. I use Barnes TTSX instead of nosler accubonds because they are marginally better in my rifle

I do read the Guardian. I have been told by several journalists over the years that they all read it to get the base stories which they they spin to whatever editorial demands they have from the media for which they work.

I am working with clients who have shown how lead affects the body’s immune system, in particular how the body controls proteins associated with cancers and degenerative disease such as Parkinson's and Alzheimer's and how this is affected by heavy metals. Method of action is now understood and demonstrated to a level where treatments involving removing lead and other heavy metals are now authorised for use in the US.

 

[Jagare]

Fox classic hunter 150grn home loads in the .308. Very accurate and kill very well. I do have Remington ulta bonded that I shoot on driven days only because I have them sitting in my cabinet. They won't be replaced with lead when they are used up.
I home load fox classic hunter for the double rifle in 8x57jrs and I've had zero problems with them.

 

[Pete6.5]

Extra Cost?

This is a complete irrelevance as far as I am concerned. The additional cost using factory loaded ammo is about £1.50 to £2 per deer. So the additional cost of a typical days stalking is increased by less than a cup of coffee.

I was talking with a friend who was whinging about the cost of copper bullets. With lead ammo he just takes the backstrap and hindquarters of a roe, and disposes of the front end because of shot damage. When I pointed that with the Fox, HIT or Peregrine in 223, 243 or 7mm I rarely have damage the prevents taking the vast majority of the meat off the front end. And can do so in the knowledge that it is not contaminated with metal fragments. On a Roe buck, that is two good meals for a family of three or four. He is now starting to use copper.

These days £10 hardly buys enough meat from the butcher or supermarket for a decent stew for one meal.

And if the extra £1.50 is the difference between turning a carcass into cash or not then the £1.50 is becoming £20, £50 or more depending on size of carcass and price from dealer.

*PPU .308 SP ammo £122 per 100 from Kranks. Federal or Geco soft points about £30 per box of 20. Ie £1.20 to £1.50 per round.

Fox Lead free 308, £55 to £65 per box of 20 depending on retailer. Ie about £3 per round.

You would be surprised how tight some people are

 

[Twodogs]

Haven’t been able to better YewTree 114grain TLR with any lead offerings. Does make target shooting a tad expensive though.

 

[Heym SR20]

You would be surprised how tight some people are

And yet the same people happily spend £4k on thermals and drive thirsty trucks.