Bo Diddley
Well-Known Member
Anarchy of the "St Trinians" kind... I love the idea.It's bound to be an abject failure. I'm tempted to register one bird, then tell them I've eaten it. Then register another one, and so on
DEFRA clucked up here
- Thread starter User00056
- Start date
It's something being done* on the back of a variant of one of all politicians' favourite lies - we're doing this for your own good/the planet/ the children
First, establish a simple registration process - done
Publicise it widely - done
Get support from professions/professionals - done
After that has worked with enough folk happy to play along (and this is the one true intent) introduce a tax (disguised as "licences" or a "registration fee" of course) on the back of all of the above - in process & I would bet soon to be done
Then leave it up to the snitch brigade who were only too happy to report a few grannies for meeting up for a cuppa during covid to help police it - which they'll happily do for free, delighted to shop their neighbour to the stasi for illegal possession of a budgie
Plus, it's another cool job creation scheme for our already bloated & wasteful civil service!
Just think of all the admin teams, IT support, managers (several layers of course) which will be "needed"
I'm sure there'll eventually be a "need" for a government position to act as oversight too, perhaps a junior minister, minister without portfolio, a "domestic fowl Tzar" or some such expensive BS
It's right up Labour's street, increasing the scope of the public sector, waste, turning the public against each other, distracting from issues that matter, maybe even some possibility of authoritarian overreach (all unregistered bird owners will be declared "right-wing extremists") - and, of course, it will probably not in any useful way address the issue used as the excuse for its introduction
It wasn't dreamt up by Ed Miliband by any chance, was it?
*don't forget, the ultimate favourite passtime of the useless/dishonest/unqualified/corrupt skintags known collectively as politicians or bureaucrats is to be seen to be doing something, no matter that it's a waste of time or money, they'll just get us to pay for it - one way or another
First, establish a simple registration process - done
Publicise it widely - done
Get support from professions/professionals - done
After that has worked with enough folk happy to play along (and this is the one true intent) introduce a tax (disguised as "licences" or a "registration fee" of course) on the back of all of the above - in process & I would bet soon to be done
Then leave it up to the snitch brigade who were only too happy to report a few grannies for meeting up for a cuppa during covid to help police it - which they'll happily do for free, delighted to shop their neighbour to the stasi for illegal possession of a budgie
Plus, it's another cool job creation scheme for our already bloated & wasteful civil service!
Just think of all the admin teams, IT support, managers (several layers of course) which will be "needed"
I'm sure there'll eventually be a "need" for a government position to act as oversight too, perhaps a junior minister, minister without portfolio, a "domestic fowl Tzar" or some such expensive BS
It's right up Labour's street, increasing the scope of the public sector, waste, turning the public against each other, distracting from issues that matter, maybe even some possibility of authoritarian overreach (all unregistered bird owners will be declared "right-wing extremists") - and, of course, it will probably not in any useful way address the issue used as the excuse for its introduction
It wasn't dreamt up by Ed Miliband by any chance, was it?
*don't forget, the ultimate favourite passtime of the useless/dishonest/unqualified/corrupt skintags known collectively as politicians or bureaucrats is to be seen to be doing something, no matter that it's a waste of time or money, they'll just get us to pay for it - one way or another
Rusty Gate
Well-Known Member
I find this absolutely brilliant. And a completely appropriate public response to an idiotic piece of legislation. At long last it appears that the British public are prepared to stand their ground. Malicious compliance of the most hilarious kind.
Defra caught in online revolt over chicken database crashes website
People who keep chickens in their garden now face prison and large fines if they fail to register them all under strict new rules brought in to tackle bird flu.www.dailymail.co.uk
FLU
Financially
Lucrative
Universally
Given that a lot of commercial poultry units have their own vets who knows what they sign off on.
Wild ducks and geese are fine though?
Jon P
Well-Known Member
Few years ago I spent most of the Xmas period collecting dead swans off a busy foot path on the foreshore.
Am sure thats not very nice thing to do, were all surviving swans registered or culled just incase they pass it on?
Wildfowl are notoriously dirty and migrate all over the place spreading disease and can congregate in the thousands.
A closed poultry flock with one diseased bird testing positive means the whole flock is killed just incase it spreads surely you can see the dots not joining.
Jon P
Well-Known Member
Dead ones collected and some sent off for testing- no live swans were culled- there was a large poultry farm with 1/4 mile and vets were testing there regularly.
Biggest issues for me was being attacked by live swans when collecting dead ones.
From my understanding, the issue was/is the significant problems encountered with negotiating the DEFRA Registration Portal rather than a reluctance to comply with this wholly sensible approach to Avian Flu containment.
K
K
In terms of spread to humans, yes they are. Especially the backyard pets that people like to cuddle. This is the real concern with AI, that a jump to people occurs and that jump then spreads to other people.Indeed. I imagine a couple of backyard birds are a far greater danger than the hundreds of thousands of geese and other migratory species that appear each year. As long as the government are fully appraised of the whereabouts of Puddles the Duck and Henrietta Hen we'll all be safe
Oh, ffs give it a rest. Did you hear of Covid, by any chance?
Incidentally, I'm fairly sure none of the owners of 'backyard pets' (in my acquaintance at least) spend any significant time 'cuddling' them
Jon P
Well-Known Member
You will be surprised what is out there , I have seen bottom panels of kitchen doors removed giving chickens free access to the kitchen. With the chickensIncidentally, I'm fairly sure none of the owners of 'backyard pets' (in my acquaintance at least) spend any significant time 'cuddling' them
all over the floor- there is also gives issue with birds having access to former food waste.I too have no desire to cuddle my hens but, sadly, plenty do and some have far too close a contact. Mr Gosling for instance: First UK person to catch H5N1 bird flu strain is namedOh, ffs give it a rest. Did you hear of Covid, by any chance?
Incidentally, I'm fairly sure none of the owners of 'backyard pets' (in my acquaintance at least) spend any significant time 'cuddling' them
He's a bit of an exception though, surely? His level of exposure and immune system compromise must've had something to do with, I should think.
My apologies for the 'give it a rest' comment, incidentally. That was uncalled-for, in retrospect
He is indeed, the name coincidence not withstanding!! It's these chance close links that could be the start of a pandemic. Just a couple of tweaks in genetic mutation to make the virus replicate in a human is all it takes.He's a bit of an exception though, surely? His level of exposure and immune system compromise must've had something to do with, I should think.
My apologies for the 'give it a rest' comment, incidentally. That was uncalled-for, in retrospect
No apology need, all part of the online debate without a beer to talk about it!
Do the SD collective realise that this applies to Larsen trap birds?
Or at least in Scotland it does.
@Conor O'Gorman could you confirm?
āany birds at any premisesā
Or at least in Scotland it does.
@Conor O'Gorman could you confirm?
āany birds at any premisesā
Last edited:
So I have a magpie in a Larsen trap.By completing the registration documents it reduces the need to knock on every household door within the protection zone around the infected premises(3km).
In some area that can be a lot of houses-
Some Local Authorities have had to do mail shots at Ā£1 a letter it does not take long to run up to Ā£30 k.
If filled in correctly and not fked up on purpose it could actually work. If you think big brother is watching you , delete all of your social media and drop your smart phones in a bucket of water, and start making tin foil hats
When I go up to my mumās for a long weekend it goes up as well since Iām culling the magpies up there. About 5x a year.
So I need to register at my home address, de register there; register at my mumās address, de register there; re register at my own address.
Sadly, that is filling it out correctly.
Thatās not including when the bird dies for whatever reason and then thereās a lull before I catch or get the next bird.
Jon P
Well-Known Member
If you lived in Wales you would not have a magpie on a Larsen trap, but that is another issue
. If a livestock keeper stops keeping sheep for a few months do they de register from having a CPH number and flock mark?? No they donāt-
People can make their lives hard or as easy as possible in life, and always look for the what ifās in life.
I worked with a very clever man for years who was very pedantic over things- everything was black and white- great chap- night mare to work with- was he happy - Definitely not
.This is an intersting thread, and it's developing along the lines I expected. Maybe Avian Influenza or a variant thereof has already arrived in the UK, or maybe it is reappearing after previous outbreaks - it is bird migration season after all. Waterfowl in this part of the world (West London) seem to be dying like flies on a daily basis at present. Local wildlife FaceBook groups are full of understandably distraught posters (large numbers of wildlife-huggers & anthropomorphism types hereabouts) reporting numbers of dead and/or dying birds on the local canal network and other waterways - but strangely not on the Thames, which is where first reports of an outbreak of Avian Influenza or similar typically originate. Perhaps carcasses and/or weakened birds are being washed away by the strong fluvial flow at present though.
As for this measure being a means to prevent/react to/help control an outbreak of AI or a related epidemic or pandemic following species jump to humanity
Well, let's just say I understand the theory and scientific principles behind that
BUT!!
I have a few doubts......
Just as in the case of Covid-19 (aka SARS-CoV-2), the jump to humans, mutation, development of a new more virulent influenza, virus strain or whatever is probably going to take place (or already has) in the far east (China, Vietnam etc). There, not only are absolutely incredibly HUGE numbers of wildfowl raised in enormous flocks for food, but hygiene standards are abysmally poor on the farms and the animals are all too often raised in extremely close proximity to, even amongst, very dense human populations
A true recipe for disaster - similar to the eating of undercooked "bush meat" (including primate species) in West Africa, a possible generator of a different, even more nightmarish, zoonotic epidemic/pandemic
If (God forbid) an AI-derived pandemic affecting humans does kick off, this registration process will do little to prevent its arrival in the UK, or its spread thereafter. We would need to quickly control or stop movement of food products and/or people to & from the regions of suspected origin - something we singularly failed and indeed refused to do in the early days of CV-19, as our weakling politicians wanted to avoid any appearance of "racism" or "xenophobia"
Following an AI or AI-derived epidemic, agents of HMG will still have to go waterway to waterway, farm to farm & house to house looking for birds to innoculate or destroy because they will never be able to rely on the register being made complete and/or kept up to date, it would be gross irresponsibility if they did
So, the only uses I foresee for the register are;
To assist with additional governmental intrusion into citizens' lives
Turning neighbours against each other (very socialist, they do love a bit of Stasi) and getting them accustomed to doing that, might be useful for all sorts of nefarious reasons
Introduction of taxes/revenue generation/job-creation-scheme
"being seen to be doing something"
Which brings me back to the first paragraph of this (lengthy, sorry for that) post of mine - why don't they REALLY/ACTUALLY do something useful when an opportunity presents itself?
IF government agencies are so damned keen on heading off the possibility of an AI outbreak and/or transfer to humans becoming an epidemic/pandemic, then why do NO government agencies respond AT ALL to numerous reports of bird carcasses or dying birds even in a densely populated part of the UK?
Loads of reports, as described above, made to various agencies including Environment Agency, DEFRA, Canals & Rivers Trust (CRT), APHA, local councils, Mayor's Office - people have even called the Police - why anyone expects them to respend baffles me, but I suppose when you've tried everything else and been brushed off.........
Responses, IF any can be generated at all, invaraibly redirect callers to an alternative agency which has already declined to react
Replies have often been "not our problem" "what are we expected to do about a few dead birds" "have you considered picking them up and disposing of them yourself"?
So
IF HMG etc are actually serious about the possibility of an AI-derived human epidemic/pandemic, why are they only pushing this register and not reacting to multiple reports of dead & dying birds in part of the biggest city in the country?
Sorry, but I'm utterly unable to believe that HMG or its various agencies truly give a flying eff about animal or human health, this register is all about money and control, very little if anything else
Feel free to call me a cynic, I will wear that badge proudly, but I have had too many negative interactions* with various government bodies to trust anything that they do or say
*With the possible exception of APHA in relation to reports of suspected BTB-infected carcasses, they tend to jump to respond to those, in my limited experience of such
As for this measure being a means to prevent/react to/help control an outbreak of AI or a related epidemic or pandemic following species jump to humanity
Well, let's just say I understand the theory and scientific principles behind that
BUT!!
I have a few doubts......
Just as in the case of Covid-19 (aka SARS-CoV-2), the jump to humans, mutation, development of a new more virulent influenza, virus strain or whatever is probably going to take place (or already has) in the far east (China, Vietnam etc). There, not only are absolutely incredibly HUGE numbers of wildfowl raised in enormous flocks for food, but hygiene standards are abysmally poor on the farms and the animals are all too often raised in extremely close proximity to, even amongst, very dense human populations
A true recipe for disaster - similar to the eating of undercooked "bush meat" (including primate species) in West Africa, a possible generator of a different, even more nightmarish, zoonotic epidemic/pandemic
If (God forbid) an AI-derived pandemic affecting humans does kick off, this registration process will do little to prevent its arrival in the UK, or its spread thereafter. We would need to quickly control or stop movement of food products and/or people to & from the regions of suspected origin - something we singularly failed and indeed refused to do in the early days of CV-19, as our weakling politicians wanted to avoid any appearance of "racism" or "xenophobia"
Following an AI or AI-derived epidemic, agents of HMG will still have to go waterway to waterway, farm to farm & house to house looking for birds to innoculate or destroy because they will never be able to rely on the register being made complete and/or kept up to date, it would be gross irresponsibility if they did
So, the only uses I foresee for the register are;
To assist with additional governmental intrusion into citizens' lives
Turning neighbours against each other (very socialist, they do love a bit of Stasi) and getting them accustomed to doing that, might be useful for all sorts of nefarious reasons
Introduction of taxes/revenue generation/job-creation-scheme
"being seen to be doing something"
Which brings me back to the first paragraph of this (lengthy, sorry for that) post of mine - why don't they REALLY/ACTUALLY do something useful when an opportunity presents itself?
IF government agencies are so damned keen on heading off the possibility of an AI outbreak and/or transfer to humans becoming an epidemic/pandemic, then why do NO government agencies respond AT ALL to numerous reports of bird carcasses or dying birds even in a densely populated part of the UK?
Loads of reports, as described above, made to various agencies including Environment Agency, DEFRA, Canals & Rivers Trust (CRT), APHA, local councils, Mayor's Office - people have even called the Police - why anyone expects them to respend baffles me, but I suppose when you've tried everything else and been brushed off.........
Responses, IF any can be generated at all, invaraibly redirect callers to an alternative agency which has already declined to react
Replies have often been "not our problem" "what are we expected to do about a few dead birds" "have you considered picking them up and disposing of them yourself"?
So
IF HMG etc are actually serious about the possibility of an AI-derived human epidemic/pandemic, why are they only pushing this register and not reacting to multiple reports of dead & dying birds in part of the biggest city in the country?
Sorry, but I'm utterly unable to believe that HMG or its various agencies truly give a flying eff about animal or human health, this register is all about money and control, very little if anything else
Feel free to call me a cynic, I will wear that badge proudly, but I have had too many negative interactions* with various government bodies to trust anything that they do or say
*With the possible exception of APHA in relation to reports of suspected BTB-infected carcasses, they tend to jump to respond to those, in my limited experience of such
Just wondering what the uptake of āregistrationā has been?
According to the legislation there is no need to register.
There is a requirement to notify, in England & Wales the Secretary of State.
and in Scotland the Scottish Ministers by writing.
The legislation covering England and Wales is section 7 of
The Avian Influenza (Preventive Measures) (England) Regulations 2006 as
amended by Exotic Disease (Amendment)(England) Order 2024.
Section 4 of the 2024 order replaces the original section 7 of the 2006
Order with a new section 7 :
7.ā(1) A person who keeps poultry or other captive birds at any premises
must notify the Secretary of State in writing of the following
information in relation to the premisesā
(a) the address and (if there is one) the holding number of the premises;
(b) that personās name and address and, if different from that personās,
those ofā
(i) the owner of the poultry or other captive birds; and
(ii)the occupier of the premises;
(c)the species of poultry or other captive birds kept at the premises;
(d)the number of birds of each species of poultry or other captive birds
kept at the premises; and
(e)the purpose or purposes for which the poultry or other captive birds
are kept.
Doing as is asked by the governments is akin to the government stating it needs details of your firearms but actually you should pass those details on to a private firm.
According to the legislation there is no need to register.
There is a requirement to notify, in England & Wales the Secretary of State.
and in Scotland the Scottish Ministers by writing.
The legislation covering England and Wales is section 7 of
The Avian Influenza (Preventive Measures) (England) Regulations 2006 as
amended by Exotic Disease (Amendment)(England) Order 2024.
Section 4 of the 2024 order replaces the original section 7 of the 2006
Order with a new section 7 :
7.ā(1) A person who keeps poultry or other captive birds at any premises
must notify the Secretary of State in writing of the following
information in relation to the premisesā
(a) the address and (if there is one) the holding number of the premises;
(b) that personās name and address and, if different from that personās,
those ofā
(i) the owner of the poultry or other captive birds; and
(ii)the occupier of the premises;
(c)the species of poultry or other captive birds kept at the premises;
(d)the number of birds of each species of poultry or other captive birds
kept at the premises; and
(e)the purpose or purposes for which the poultry or other captive birds
are kept.
Doing as is asked by the governments is akin to the government stating it needs details of your firearms but actually you should pass those details on to a private firm.
