Got arrested this morning

[JH83]

Sorry, but that’s not quite how it goes these days.

An unarmed officer sent to a potential ‘firearms incident’ ?
Would you like to be the supervisor who does that and if/when it all goes badly and the unarmed officer (or his family) claim you were negligent in doing so? you knew or suspected a firearm was involved but you still sent a man/woman/person to investigate without the means to protect themselves. The HSE would be involved, the Force would be prosecuted and sued.
Quite simply, time has moved on within the Police as everywhere else. They simply cannot leave an expensive resource like an ARV crew out of a ‘firearms incident’ as that’s what they’re there to deal with.
The unarmed officer should be kept well out of the way of any real or suspected firearms job for their own safety.
I’m not saying that if I was stopped in my car for some traffic offence (God forbid) I’d expect a full armed extraction by an ARV crew from behind ‘cover from view or fire’, but the incident would’ve started out as a traffic stop rather than a firearms job.

Plus - I will leave you with this thought.
In my recent experience most of the armed Police I have worked with are VERY young in service. To the extent that you can actually apply to join the ARV’s whilst still in your probation. The relevant courses will not start until you have 2 years service, but you could be selected.
There are reasons for this; the higher fitness level precludes lots of officers with niggling injuries, the yearly medicals with higher levels of hearing and eyesight tests also takes its toll. If you bear in mind that initial Police training is around 6 months, followed by a month or two being tutored, then an officer stepping out of an ARV could have had as little as only 16 months actual Police experience before entering the world of armed Policing. Those officers haven’t got enough background in dealing with people anyway, now they’re doing it with a firearm. It not like giving Dixon Of Dock Green a Glock 17 and expecting that mix of old style coppering backed up with a firearm. As JAGDMATCH posted - once they step outside their SOP’s and policy, they will not be supported by management.

I have a great deal of sympathy with the OP and his friend, but in the world we are currently in I also think the action taken by the officers was sadly, probably correct from the point of view of their training and following their SOP’s and Policies.

However - if he feels he needs to then a letter to the relevant Police Authority could result in something. Perhaps he’d get a chance to sit down with one of the officers managers and put forward his point of view and listen to the reply.
Sometimes this is more revealing and rewarding than a formal Complaint Against Police.

Yes it is.

The FIM can risk assess it via NDMM and if it looks like an organised shoot an officer can attend, following stay safe principals.

This isn’t speculation

This of course depends on the content of the log…..which we don’t know.

 

[VSS]

However - if he feels he needs to then a letter to the relevant Police Authority could result in something. Perhaps he’d get a chance to sit down with one of the officers managers and put forward his point of view and listen to the reply.
Sometimes this is more revealing and rewarding than a formal Complaint Against Police.

Wise words ^^^

 

[Eddie P]

And then there are incidents like this where a minimal response happens!!

Gun terror as boy shoots ducks and geese in Central Forest Park

Police are investigating

www.stokesentinel.co.uk

 

[Brittany boy]

Where do you think the bad boys go to try out their illegal toys, they don’t do this in the city centre as armed response would be there pretty quickly. Yes they go to the woods or open moors set up a target and have a go , or they just use the nearest road sign before driving off. As others have said we don’t know what was said in the original call, or if information was held on police systems regarding your shoot / wood being used for other purposes. We had a large wooded area next to a commercial shooting ground that criminal gangs were using to hide drugs and weapons. The sound of the shotgun fire masked their illegal activities, ……. Who would have thought .

 

[Bavarianbrit]

Here is the Bavarian training schedule for new cops.
We will train you for 2.5 years in a wide variety of disciplines so that you are well prepared for any operational situation. In five training sections we cover topics from the areas of law, practice and personal development. You train in real cases - from emergency calls to behavior at the scene to case processing. You will be prepared for your future tasks in practice rooms and later in a professional internship at a local police station.
Wir bilden Dich 2,5 Jahre in den unterschiedlichsten Disziplinen aus, damit Du auf jede Einsatzsituation bestens vorbereitet bist. In fünf Ausbildungsabschnitten behandeln wir Themen aus den Bereichen Recht, Praxis und Persönlichkeitsbildung. Du trainierst echte Fälle – vom Notruf über das Verhalten am Einsatzort bis hin zur Sachbearbeitung. In Übungsräumen und später auch im Berufspraktikum bei einer heimatnahen Polizeiinspektion wirst Du so auf Deine zukünftigen Aufgaben vorbereitet.

 

[artschool]

And then there are incidents like this where a minimal response happens!!

Gun terror as boy shoots ducks and geese in Central Forest Park

Police are investigating

www.stokesentinel.co.uk

they might be protected class? and subject to a different tier of policing? hard to tell.

 

[gazmanthegun]

This morning my friend and I had loaded weapons pointed at us, were told to walk with our hands in the air, were handcuffed, were told "you are both under arrest under suspicion of possession of a firearm", our clothes were searched searched and my car was briefly examined visually inside before "Thank you for your cooperation, sorry for the trouble but you will understand we have to investigate reports" This is not on and I would like advice as to how to stop this happening to others.

I would like to say from the start that the officers involved were very polite and I thought them all nice guys but the protocol that allowed this to happen is not fair or proportionate and I think if it is allowed to be considered as OK, then we are on a slippery slope to being guilty until proven innocent, which is a bad position to be in with a gun in your hand.

Of course we had permission, of course we didn't point guns at or near anyone. If fact we didn't point a gun at all -no deer was even seen on the permission where I have shot for years. The policeman in charge told me that he didn't know till they arrived at the scene and he took my registration that I had a FAC. To that point if you want to bring 6 or 7 cars full of armed officers and a dog team to a report of "2 males with a long barrelled weapon seen going into (private) wood (in the countryside with no footpath, exiting car parked within woodland edge from woodland facing side and walking in)" then OK if you can justify the resource allocation but from that point on, when nothing suspicious had been done and I was clearly licensed this was surely heavy handed? Surely a quiet word with an unarmed officer when we emerged from the wood to check we had permission would have been enough? Even then whose business is it to check up on law abiding citizens hunting with a weapon held for only hunting unless there has been poaching in the area or suspicion of poaching? Why should hunting be itself a suspicious activity? Is taking cash out of a bank suspicious in itself? Is driving a car away suspicious in itself?

Did I need to be arrested by armed men? did I need to be handcuffed or searched? The officer in charge said "Sorry we can't be taking chances" but if that sort of thinking is allowed to take root we will all be pushed further and further into corners afraid to assert our rights do do what we have worked hard to be given lawful permission to do. What is suspicious about someone who holds a rifle only for deer stalking to be seen deer stalking? I said to the officer "There are thousands of people out on this Christmas holiday Saturday legally shooting. Would it be right to arrest anyone seen in a field carrying a gun on a sling on their shoulder?" He just said they couldn't take chances and I should phone the police to tell them I am going hunting in advance. This is the state going too far in my opinion.

I expect a number of replies to say "You must have done something suspicious" and "We must all just accept this sort of control and interference in the interests of public safety" but I feel this is going too far. Had it been a report of drug use or burglary the police would likely never have even turned up but more people die from drugs and criminal lifestyles than from guns in this country every year, a lot more. There is a witch hunt out for guns and country sports. If we accept this as OK because we are all too scared to risk going on the naughty list next time we want to renew, where does this end?

In the interests of my fellow sportsmen, I would ideally like someone in charge to simply accept that this was a heavy handed approach and to revise the protocol. I don't know if I really want to go through the misery of pushing for this but right now I feel I should. Can anyone advise me how I would best go about this please?

Thanks

Despicable but sadly representative of the increasing marginalisation of shooting sports in this country. We have to continue to work at educating and involving none shooters in our sport as a way of decreasing (or perhaps limiting the increase) the frequency of incidents such as this.

I hope you get a formal apology and lessons are learned, but this is probable too much to ask.

Most importantly, don’t let this incident put you off!

 

[WalkedUp]

My key take aways from reading this thread and my three tour veteran pal, who became a police firearms training officer and also shoots:

• 1 - As a community we need to re-educate the wider population of what lawful use of firearms looks like.
• 2 - In some situations the police appreciate notification of shooting activity, however there is fear that this will be a slippery slope towards mandatory pre-notification or even pre-approval. Overall we seem to agree that pre-notification is for exceptional circumstances rather than in general.
• 3 - The police will follow up all reports of firearms incidents, regardless of pre-notification. Pre-notification may result in a quicker follow up, a phone call rather than full ARV raid but that is not guaranteed.
• 4 - Pointing a firearm at any human that you do not intend to kill is idiotic or poor training, whether you are a police officer, soldier or layman shows a skillset that is not suitable to handle firearms.
• 5 - Consciously pointing a loaded firearm, with your finger on the trigger, at a person that you do not intend to kill is beyond reckless, and in the UK without justification of any immediate threat or need that person should be prosecuted. I.e. A suspect in possession of a firearm in a non-threatening position should be responded with “low-ready”.
• 6 - Police in the UK are undertaking an increasingly impossible job, being highly militarised and yet expected to police by consent.
• 7 - There needs to be communication of these issues to police forces from our community, rather than individuals, to try and cooperatively improve the police’s understanding of lawful use of firearms and their responsibility for safe firearm handling.

 

[paulst]

My key take aways from reading this thread and my three tour veteran pal, who became a police firearms training officer and also shoots:

• 1 - As a community we need to re-educate the wider population of what lawful use of firearms looks like.
• 2 - In some situations the police appreciate notification of shooting activity, however there is fear that this will be a slippery slope towards mandatory pre-notification or even pre-approval. Overall we seem to agree that pre-notification is for exceptional circumstances rather than in general.
• 3 - The police will follow up all reports of firearms incidents, regardless of pre-notification. Pre-notification may result in a quicker follow up, a phone call rather than full ARV raid but that is not guaranteed.
• 4 - Pointing a firearm at any human that you do not intend to kill is idiotic or poor training, whether you are a police officer, soldier or layman shows a skillset that is not suitable to handle firearms.
• 5 - Consciously pointing a loaded firearm, with your finger on the trigger, at a person that you do not intend to kill is beyond reckless, and in the UK without justification of any immediate threat or need that person should be prosecuted. I.e. A suspect in possession of a firearm in a non-threatening position should be responded with “low-ready”.
• 6 - Police in the UK are undertaking an increasingly impossible job, being highly militarised and yet expected to police by consent.
• 7 - There needs to be communication of these issues to police forces from our community, rather than individuals, to try and cooperatively improve the police’s understanding of lawful use of firearms and their responsibility for

Indeed, points 4&5 are immediately concerning being a threat to life. Thought the underlying role of the police was to protect the innocent.

 

[Bavarianbrit]

Points 4 & 5 do function well as a laxative though, been there got the underwear.

 

[paulst]

Points 4 & 5 do function well as a laxative though, been there got the underwear.

Yes, once had police point handguns through the window of a car I was in!

 

[cra1gscott]

This morning my friend and I had loaded weapons pointed at us, were told to walk with our hands in the air, were handcuffed, were told "you are both under arrest under suspicion of possession of a firearm", our clothes were searched searched and my car was briefly examined visually inside before "Thank you for your cooperation, sorry for the trouble but you will understand we have to investigate reports" This is not on and I would like advice as to how to stop this happening to others.

I would like to say from the start that the officers involved were very polite and I thought them all nice guys but the protocol that allowed this to happen is not fair or proportionate and I think if it is allowed to be considered as OK, then we are on a slippery slope to being guilty until proven innocent, which is a bad position to be in with a gun in your hand.

Of course we had permission, of course we didn't point guns at or near anyone. If fact we didn't point a gun at all -no deer was even seen on the permission where I have shot for years. The policeman in charge told me that he didn't know till they arrived at the scene and he took my registration that I had a FAC. To that point if you want to bring 6 or 7 cars full of armed officers and a dog team to a report of "2 males with a long barrelled weapon seen going into (private) wood (in the countryside with no footpath, exiting car parked within woodland edge from woodland facing side and walking in)" then OK if you can justify the resource allocation but from that point on, when nothing suspicious had been done and I was clearly licensed this was surely heavy handed? Surely a quiet word with an unarmed officer when we emerged from the wood to check we had permission would have been enough? Even then whose business is it to check up on law abiding citizens hunting with a weapon held for only hunting unless there has been poaching in the area or suspicion of poaching? Why should hunting be itself a suspicious activity? Is taking cash out of a bank suspicious in itself? Is driving a car away suspicious in itself?

Did I need to be arrested by armed men? did I need to be handcuffed or searched? The officer in charge said "Sorry we can't be taking chances" but if that sort of thinking is allowed to take root we will all be pushed further and further into corners afraid to assert our rights do do what we have worked hard to be given lawful permission to do. What is suspicious about someone who holds a rifle only for deer stalking to be seen deer stalking? I said to the officer "There are thousands of people out on this Christmas holiday Saturday legally shooting. Would it be right to arrest anyone seen in a field carrying a gun on a sling on their shoulder?" He just said they couldn't take chances and I should phone the police to tell them I am going hunting in advance. This is the state going too far in my opinion.

I expect a number of replies to say "You must have done something suspicious" and "We must all just accept this sort of control and interference in the interests of public safety" but I feel this is going too far. Had it been a report of drug use or burglary the police would likely never have even turned up but more people die from drugs and criminal lifestyles than from guns in this country every year, a lot more. There is a witch hunt out for guns and country sports. If we accept this as OK because we are all too scared to risk going on the naughty list next time we want to renew, where does this end?

In the interests of my fellow sportsmen, I would ideally like someone in charge to simply accept that this was a heavy handed approach and to revise the protocol. I don't know if I really want to go through the misery of pushing for this but right now I feel I should. Can anyone advise me how I would best go about this please?

Thanks

Assuming you are in England then write to
Your PCC (police and crime commissioner) with pretty much what you have said on here. They are elected by the public to represent the public

 

[Rutland lad]

My key take aways from reading this thread and my three tour veteran pal, who became a police firearms training officer and also shoots:

• 1 - As a community we need to re-educate the wider population of what lawful use of firearms looks like.
• 2 - In some situations the police appreciate notification of shooting activity, however there is fear that this will be a slippery slope towards mandatory pre-notification or even pre-approval. Overall we seem to agree that pre-notification is for exceptional circumstances rather than in general.
• 3 - The police will follow up all reports of firearms incidents, regardless of pre-notification. Pre-notification may result in a quicker follow up, a phone call rather than full ARV raid but that is not guaranteed.
• 4 - Pointing a firearm at any human that you do not intend to kill is idiotic or poor training, whether you are a police officer, soldier or layman shows a skillset that is not suitable to handle firearms.
• 5 - Consciously pointing a loaded firearm, with your finger on the trigger, at a person that you do not intend to kill is beyond reckless, and in the UK without justification of any immediate threat or need that person should be prosecuted. I.e. A suspect in possession of a firearm in a non-threatening position should be responded with “low-ready”.
• 6 - Police in the UK are undertaking an increasingly impossible job, being highly militarised and yet expected to police by consent.
• 7 - There needs to be communication of these issues to police forces from our community, rather than individuals, to try and cooperatively improve the police’s understanding of lawful use of firearms and their responsibility for safe firearm handling.

May I ask where in the OP was it stated that the officers pointed firearms at the OP. I’ve just reread it and perhaps I’ve missed that but, but I couldn’t find that.
Many replies on here are stating it’s OTT and bad practice to point a weapon at someone - and it is.
But I cannot see that happened. Let’s not make this incident into something it wasn’t.

 

[bigtone]

May I ask where in the OP was it stated that the officers pointed firearms at the OP. I’ve just reread it and perhaps I’ve missed that but, but I couldn’t find that.
Many replies on here are stating it’s OTT and bad practice to point a weapon at someone - and it is.
But I cannot see that happened. Let’s not make this incident into something it wasn’t.

First line of the original post says" this morning my friend and l had loaded weapons pointed at us".Just to add the only time I've encountered armed response whilst "lamping", a long time ago,both officers had their guns hanging around their shoulders with a sling, and were in no way confrontational or hyped up.Pretty laid back and were more interested in a silenced 12g as neither had come across one before.A " let me have a go with yours" fell on death ears though.Lamping rabbits with a h&k would've been fun.

 

[Rutland lad]

First line of the original post says" this morning my friend and l had loaded weapons pointed at us".

Indeed it did - my mistake. I managed to post it before properly composing it. Assisted by trying to hold on to my three month old grandson. What I meant to ask was were they in the ‘aim’ or the ‘off aim ready’
Sometimes what would appear to be ‘weapons pointed’ is not in fact the case.
I am well aware I’m trying to justify their actions, but believe me many times I’m completely aghast at what’s going on.

 

[paul o']

Had it twice once including the egg beater first time two ninjas came crossed private land damaging crops shouting we can see you stand up ? But they jumped as we shouted over here end story was they were badly informed and a case was made and paid for access and crop damage as the farmer should have been found just in case he had two armed gunman shooting on his land red faces and a few chucking ninjas that were known to us as we had met then at a competitive pistol match.

2nd same thing but out foxing back when we used red lights.
Stand still big lights place the gun on the floor ect ect.
My reply was to shoulder it and tell them there future if they thought i was going to put my rifle in a **** filled pig farm ! .
Hands up walk this way sailor. Sorted one call and the lights were off carry on.
After that I'd call the controller inform them and keep a log.
After that it got to the point Essex control
would call me to see if it was me or something to act on .
Understand it's there job and who they may face and it makes most of the lads Hart race at best ! As we know there in no way infallible, so just play the game
Or do as I used to make a call yes it's very big brother and i know lots of guys that puff up and say no fecking way iam telling anyone bla bla ! Then bitch when they roll up and ruin your event.
And that wobble choppy makes everthing run away so was it worth it ?

 

[Rafter]

Why would you want to do that ?

The officers are only doing their job. And they DO get death threats made against them - the recent murder charge against one Met officer shows that’s a real issue.
I’m not sorry to step up here - I’ve been in similar situation with the blue suit on and we do take our own security quite seriously.
I am sorry someone thinks that to ‘make them famous’ is a good idea.
The above post is in reality a threat to the officers homelife, wife, partner, children.

For just doing his job.

Ask yourself a question - if you were sent to a job with minimal info but you knew someone had a weapon (possibly shotgun possibly rifle) would you be polite but firm ? Would you put them in handcuffs until you were satisfied there wasn’t a threat ?

Or would you let them dictate what was going on and end up on the wrong end of violence (think Manchester Airport recently)

In the US someone would probably have been shot.

How lucky we are in the UK that Police still deal with things with a ‘light touch’ and I read the OP and think it still was lightly handled overall.

What a lot of overblown rubbish.
The US cops have thousands of interactions with gun carrying people every week, and nobody gets shot.
As I read it, the OP had laid the rifle down to comply with walking up a steep bank with his hands up. Where was the threat?

 

[scotch_egg]

What a lot of overblown rubbish.
The US cops have thousands of interactions with gun carrying people every week, and nobody gets shot.

I’m not going to comment on the circumstances of this incident. But feel compelled to leave this here

U.S. Data on Police Shootings and Violence | Law Enforcement Epidemiology Project | University of Illinois Chicago

Data on police shootings and violence impacting civilians in the United States, as prepared by the Law Enforcement Epidemiology Project.

policeepi.uic.edu

 

[Saracen666]

This morning my friend and I had loaded weapons pointed at us, were told to walk with our hands in the air, were handcuffed, were told "you are both under arrest under suspicion of possession of a firearm", our clothes were searched searched and my car was briefly examined visually inside before "Thank you for your cooperation, sorry for the trouble but you will understand we have to investigate reports" This is not on and I would like advice as to how to stop this happening to others.

I would like to say from the start that the officers involved were very polite and I thought them all nice guys but the protocol that allowed this to happen is not fair or proportionate and I think if it is allowed to be considered as OK, then we are on a slippery slope to being guilty until proven innocent, which is a bad position to be in with a gun in your hand.

Of course we had permission, of course we didn't point guns at or near anyone. If fact we didn't point a gun at all -no deer was even seen on the permission where I have shot for years. The policeman in charge told me that he didn't know till they arrived at the scene and he took my registration that I had a FAC. To that point if you want to bring 6 or 7 cars full of armed officers and a dog team to a report of "2 males with a long barrelled weapon seen going into (private) wood (in the countryside with no footpath, exiting car parked within woodland edge from woodland facing side and walking in)" then OK if you can justify the resource allocation but from that point on, when nothing suspicious had been done and I was clearly licensed this was surely heavy handed? Surely a quiet word with an unarmed officer when we emerged from the wood to check we had permission would have been enough? Even then whose business is it to check up on law abiding citizens hunting with a weapon held for only hunting unless there has been poaching in the area or suspicion of poaching? Why should hunting be itself a suspicious activity? Is taking cash out of a bank suspicious in itself? Is driving a car away suspicious in itself?

Did I need to be arrested by armed men? did I need to be handcuffed or searched? The officer in charge said "Sorry we can't be taking chances" but if that sort of thinking is allowed to take root we will all be pushed further and further into corners afraid to assert our rights do do what we have worked hard to be given lawful permission to do. What is suspicious about someone who holds a rifle only for deer stalking to be seen deer stalking? I said to the officer "There are thousands of people out on this Christmas holiday Saturday legally shooting. Would it be right to arrest anyone seen in a field carrying a gun on a sling on their shoulder?" He just said they couldn't take chances and I should phone the police to tell them I am going hunting in advance. This is the state going too far in my opinion.

I expect a number of replies to say "You must have done something suspicious" and "We must all just accept this sort of control and interference in the interests of public safety" but I feel this is going too far. Had it been a report of drug use or burglary the police would likely never have even turned up but more people die from drugs and criminal lifestyles than from guns in this country every year, a lot more. There is a witch hunt out for guns and country sports. If we accept this as OK because we are all too scared to risk going on the naughty list next time we want to renew, where does this end?

In the interests of my fellow sportsmen, I would ideally like someone in charge to simply accept that this was a heavy handed approach and to revise the protocol. I don't know if I really want to go through the misery of pushing for this but right now I feel I should. Can anyone advise me how I would best go about this please?

Thanks

What was their actual basis for turning up?
If they suspected actual criminal firearms activity, they'd have been stupid to attend unarmed. Most counties have armed police, and all ours should be armed, in my opinion.
I wouldn't say they did anything heavy handed, they merely followed SOP.

 

[63]

4 - Pointing a firearm at any human that you do not intend to kill is idiotic or poor training, whether you are a police officer, soldier or layman shows a skillset that is not suitable to handle firearms.
• 5 - Consciously pointing a loaded firearm, with your finger on the trigger, at a person that you do not intend to kill is beyond reckless, and in the UK without justification of any immediate threat or need that person should be prosecuted. I.e. A suspect in possession of a firearm in a non-threatening position should be responded with “low-ready”.

I have conducted thousands upon thousands of armed ‘traffic stops’ and ‘stop and searches’ in Iraq and Afghanistan, and we/I pointed weapons at the individuals stopped until they were searched and cleared every single time, we would only relax to the ‘low ready’ once we confirmed no one was armed and had a sufficient stand off distance between them and us. I have trained and worked alongside the UK armed police, both ARV and CTFOs and they do the same if they have reason to believe the threat warrants it.

You’re welcome to think me an idiot or ill trained and I’ll cheerfully return the favour.

Always carrying in the ‘low ready’ and ‘raise, aim and fire’-ing only when you decide to engage is a ‘tactical fantasy’ - based on the way you *think* a violent incident goes down, rather than the way they *actually* do. It isn’t taught practice anywhere that I’ve ever encountered, and defies any kind of common sense.

Whether or not the perceived threat in this case justified pointing of weapons, I can’t say - I wasn’t there and I don’t know the RoE/SOP in place, or what information and context was given to the officers prior to their arrival, but if the officers were confident a firearm was present, then in a UK context (where such things are very rare) it makes complete sense.

Elsewhere on this forum we have threads discussing at length how ill-equipped police ARVs are to do humane dispatch because they ‘don’t know anything about shooting animals’. I might suggest that sporting shooters don’t automatically know anything more about gun handling in a tactical context.

To the original poster - I can understand why you were shaken up, and especially why your mate was given the extra detail you posted. Having a gun pointed at you with intent for the first time is unpleasant. It will take a week or two for the immediate emotional reaction to settle down, but maybe let that happen before you make a decision about complaining or otherwise engaging with the police on this - then you can do it deliberately and with a clearer head.