What about my 410? No lead free offerings
- Thread starter hammo
- Start date
Dont really fancy paying @£30 a box.
My 410 is steel proofed, where are the steel carts????
@Conor O'Gorman??
Products Archive - Page 5 of 5 - Lyalvale Express Lyalvale do bismuth too. Perhaps one to ask some of the US brands importers?
Bo Diddley
Well-Known Member
@Smellydog you must have a solution... probably buy several lbs of #6 shot and keep reloading for decades and give two fingers to the regulations 
Smellydog
Well-Known Member
They can kiss my ass as long as they've brushed their teeth.@Smellydog you must have a solution... probably buy several lbs of #6 shot and keep reloading for decades and give two fingers to the regulations
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
410 and 28 bores are not well catered for in terms of cartridges as they account for a small portion of the market.
The cartridge industry know how to make steel 410 and 28, and they are available in markets where non toxic is mandatory. I would like to think that the likes of Lyalvale, Eley, Gamebore etc have suitable offerings in the pipeline. I for one am looking forward to using my 410 again on game.
The cartridge industry know how to make steel 410 and 28, and they are available in markets where non toxic is mandatory. I would like to think that the likes of Lyalvale, Eley, Gamebore etc have suitable offerings in the pipeline. I for one am looking forward to using my 410 again on game.
Well it’s not happing yet with Express they have just put up their prices and a new list of products and the only .410s are all fibre wads in lead or bismuth. Jocker are offering their cardboard shot cups in 28ga and .410 to reloaders at a price. Don’t forget the U.K. goal is non toxic shot in biodegradable wads, unlike other markets where non toxic is mandatory.
Flash G 74
Well-Known Member
Hello, Just Cart Bismuth nearly £1,500 per 1000 !!!!, Why not load your own ??
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Challenge with the 410 is that it has become a specialty gun. I have had a love with the 410 for best part of 45 years. My Grandmother had a little single barreled Ward patent style Army and Navy 410 on the farm. I was allowed to use it and given one or two cartridges at a time.
In those days we would go to the Youngs hardware store in Needham Market to buy cartridges. 410’s were cheaper than 12s, but they were all expensive. And you bought them by the box of 25.
Nowadays 410 cartridges are more expensive than 12 bore. A basic 410 clay cartridge 2 1/2” long is £430 per. 1000, a basic 12 Eley Select is £230 per 1000.
Nowadays I have a couple single Ward Patent 410’s. They are wonderful little guns to use. And I have a 1920’s WJ Jeffery best quality boxlock. It was once a jem, but its had a hard life and bores are pretty pitted. Probably needs sleeving at some point.
I have used them on game in the past, and continue to use on clays. A 410 is deadly in the right hands, but you do have to pick your shots and keep ranges short. Pattern is small compared to a 12. Phaesants and duck are large tough birds, so a 410 not ideal - woodcock, partridge etc are much better suited quarry. Ideal would be quail over pointers as they do in the southern US. Small bird held in tight that then flush anywhere.
As a training gun the only thing 410 has over other gauges is it being lightweight. This allows a small youngster to hold it, but the tightness of pattern and difficulty of actually hitting anything moving far outweighs its lightness.
A much better trainer is probably light 12 or 20 with correct stock length with a light training 16 gram training cartridge. If it’s still a bit big, then no harm in waiting a few months. Most youngsters grow very fast. The actual ability to hit things soon makes up the extra weight.
For youngsters a little air rifle is probably a far far better trainer. My grandmother also had a little BSA Cadet and as an 8, 9 or 10 year old I would should a few hundred pellets in a weekend at tin cans, windfall apples etc. Nowadays there is a little Weirauch air rifle that makes a superb training rifle for youngsters. I would teach them to shoot with open sights as it gives a much understanding of lining up a gun with a target and is transferable skills to both shot gun and rifle.
So where does this leave the 410. I think it will be the gun of the specialist, and probably will require home loading, especially if you are using short 2 1/2” chambered guns. In the US the 410 is becoming the darling of turkey hunters when used with of TSS shot.
Non toxic shot is expensive compared to lead. But a traditional 410 uses 1/2 or 1/3 of the shot load of a 12 bore, so price of shot per cartridge is low. For me I probably use some bismuth in a small pellet size, load up 50 cartridges and enjoy a couple of afternoons every now and then with my dog looking for woodcock and snipe in the oakwoods and boggy bits of farms I am fortunate enough to shoot over. A couple of woodcock, a couple of snipe and happy memories.
But hopefully there will be enough demand that affordable 410 non toxic cartridges come onto the market here in the UK.
In those days we would go to the Youngs hardware store in Needham Market to buy cartridges. 410’s were cheaper than 12s, but they were all expensive. And you bought them by the box of 25.
Nowadays 410 cartridges are more expensive than 12 bore. A basic 410 clay cartridge 2 1/2” long is £430 per. 1000, a basic 12 Eley Select is £230 per 1000.
Nowadays I have a couple single Ward Patent 410’s. They are wonderful little guns to use. And I have a 1920’s WJ Jeffery best quality boxlock. It was once a jem, but its had a hard life and bores are pretty pitted. Probably needs sleeving at some point.
I have used them on game in the past, and continue to use on clays. A 410 is deadly in the right hands, but you do have to pick your shots and keep ranges short. Pattern is small compared to a 12. Phaesants and duck are large tough birds, so a 410 not ideal - woodcock, partridge etc are much better suited quarry. Ideal would be quail over pointers as they do in the southern US. Small bird held in tight that then flush anywhere.
As a training gun the only thing 410 has over other gauges is it being lightweight. This allows a small youngster to hold it, but the tightness of pattern and difficulty of actually hitting anything moving far outweighs its lightness.
A much better trainer is probably light 12 or 20 with correct stock length with a light training 16 gram training cartridge. If it’s still a bit big, then no harm in waiting a few months. Most youngsters grow very fast. The actual ability to hit things soon makes up the extra weight.
For youngsters a little air rifle is probably a far far better trainer. My grandmother also had a little BSA Cadet and as an 8, 9 or 10 year old I would should a few hundred pellets in a weekend at tin cans, windfall apples etc. Nowadays there is a little Weirauch air rifle that makes a superb training rifle for youngsters. I would teach them to shoot with open sights as it gives a much understanding of lining up a gun with a target and is transferable skills to both shot gun and rifle.
So where does this leave the 410. I think it will be the gun of the specialist, and probably will require home loading, especially if you are using short 2 1/2” chambered guns. In the US the 410 is becoming the darling of turkey hunters when used with of TSS shot.
Non toxic shot is expensive compared to lead. But a traditional 410 uses 1/2 or 1/3 of the shot load of a 12 bore, so price of shot per cartridge is low. For me I probably use some bismuth in a small pellet size, load up 50 cartridges and enjoy a couple of afternoons every now and then with my dog looking for woodcock and snipe in the oakwoods and boggy bits of farms I am fortunate enough to shoot over. A couple of woodcock, a couple of snipe and happy memories.
But hopefully there will be enough demand that affordable 410 non toxic cartridges come onto the market here in the UK.
Smellydog
Well-Known Member
Very nice.
I'm amazed how long you have been shooting lead shot but are still alive!
Long may it remain so.
Would love to know where you think you can buy eley select for £230 a thousand? have you actually purchased any cartridges recently?
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Apologies - typo. Just Cartridges have a number of offerings at £280 to £290. Admittedly I last bought shot gun cartridges a few months ago.
Select 12Ga | Shotgun Cartridges Delivered Nationwide
Order Select 12Ga online and have them delivered nationwide | Next day delivery where possible
www.justcartridges.com
Good afternoon, do you know of any suppliers of Jocker .410 wads? I can find them in 12/20 on clay and game website but not for .410. I would love to try some with TSS but not had any luck finding a supplier.
Thanks,
Calum
As far as I know the only ones imported so far have been the 12 & 20 the other gauges are yet to arrive.
At the price point they are selling for using them with TSS is probably logical. Will be interesting to see how much shot they hold, as being cardboard the wall thickness must be quite thick if they are to protect the bore. in any case with TSS and probably even with steel shot I would add a mylar wrap, however that defeats the goal of 100% environmentally safe.
Will try some in 28gauge when available.
A full stack load of a 410 is however is half the capacity of a light 12 bore load remember. Small steel will work of course depending on range ( check the proof and the choke )
Yeah, it will be a rise but home loading small pellet bismuth in a little 410 will likely kill better than lead
then just load small pellet in lead in the little 410 will likely kill better than Bismuth.Think your logic is a little off, until, any total lead ban, lead will always kill better than bismuth or steel.
seen enough killed with Bismuth to rate the stuff ( however there was some out on the market that fractured on impact) I have killed a lot of Geese on the foreshore with steel and rate large steel shot the best of all foxing loads .
Think your logic is a little off, until, any total lead ban, lead will always kill better than bismuth or steel.
I disagree and i have actually used more steel than most and started before game shooters etc had even used it
Steel has one problem and that is it will ricochet and even bounce back at you on hitting trees / rocks I tell you it hurts a lot and both myself and my daughter have had it come back and hit hard ( certainly hard enough to destroy an unprotected eye) . Bismuth is about having the stuff that isn't correctly done if badly made/ formed that can shatter on impact- not good ! But that is mis - manufacture and that can happen to any product .
I think the capacity will be fine for .410 as i currently load a 14g TSS load for ducks/geese which with the extra density it will outshoot a 12 bore lead round for range. With it being so dense I have to put a filler in the plastic TPS wad to take up space so even with a thick wad there should be enough space. I doubt they would me much good for anything else though. Hopefully get some to try soon!
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