New lead free for my old vintage rifle

[bobo]

When i read some of your discussions here on this site, you have the same discussions we had here some years ago. It was announced 7 years ago the lead ban would come and at start there was a lot of discussions.
Now we have several years of experince in lead fre rifle ammo and almost 30 years of lead fre shotgun ammo experience.

14 years ago we where forced to use lead free only on hunts in German state forests. For that reason i mainly used 165gr Hornady GMX in my old 30-06 Krico, since i got it 5 years ago. Before that i used Barnes 250gr TSX in Sauer 202 9,3x62 with good results.
Now however we have 100% ban on lead for all kind of hunting here i Denmark. For shotguns they banned lead back in 1996, and now they also banned it for rifels.
I just kept on using my Hornadys in 30-06 when lead ban came here, even when the accuraty was nort the best.

Now the Hornadys are becoming hard to get so i decided to switch.
As a handloader i went to the gunshpop and bought a testpack (8 bullets of all types they sell) lead free hunting bullets in caliber .30.
They have these testpacks in most shops as experience shows how much difference there are in what bullets the rifles like, and noone can tell without test shooting.

Here is the results: all shots fired from the testbech at the 100meter range in Vingsted sport shooting range.
Electronic target system tells the spread, if its not to bad

165gr Hornady GMX, my old ammo, was ok for driven hunts and up to around 100 meters, but not great 5 centimeter spread.
150gr and 165gr Barens TTSX, really bad, problem keeping them inside black electronic marking zone of 15centimeters.
165gr TSX same as the TTSX.
Lapua Naturalis 170gr, bad 6,8 centimeters.
RWS Evolution Green, perfect keeping 4 shots within 2cm.
SAKO 120gr Powerhead Blade, really bad 4 shots spread over 10 centimeters.
SAKO 170gr Powerhead Blade, OK 3,5 centimeters.
Nosler 168 and 180gr E-tip. OK both types stay within 4 centimeter.
FOX Classic. 150 and 165gr. Perfect, stay within the 2.2 centimeter.
DK bullets 130, 150 and 180gr, really bad some went of the electronic black zone.

My old BSA CF2 Stuztsen cal .308, i always use 165gr Barnes TTSX, and it shoots relly well with those, dont know what it would say to the other types.
I also have a CZ 527 BRNO FOX i bought from new 1987, caliber .222, and thats a fuzzy old lady. Only bullet it likes is 50gr Barns TSX, if I try 50gr TTSX it spred them out like cowdung on a big field.

Brother in Law, use 30-06 in his Blaser R93, it dosent like Barnes, but shoots SAKO 170gr Blade factory ammo well, he never tried anything else.
He got a .243 barrel for it, and so far we have not been able to find a lead free bullet that barrel likes.

My friends Blaser R93 .308 shoots really bad with SAKO 170Gr Blade, but that rifle love 180gr DK bullets and 165gr Barnes TTSX.
His brother had a lot of trouble with his Browning Maral, they ended up doing the same as I did with a testpack, and his rifle ONLY liked FOX classic. All other bullets where really bad in that rifle.

My old man shoots a SAKO 85 Bavarian, and so far he only tried Sako Blade 170gr and 165gr TTSX, and it likes them both.


So that was a little practical experience with lead free hunting ammo.
The rumor say, bigger bores have it easyer with lead free bullets, dont know if it is just a tale.

The most popular caliber here right now is .308 Win, and 9,3x62 is on solid 2 place, good old Scandinavian 6,5x55 has been pressed back on number 3.
30 years ago 6,5x55 would probably have been number 1, 308 number 2, and 30-06 number 3.

 

[KimE]

Try Copper Bear made by Staffans Vapen they sell test packs.

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

SAKO 170gr Powerhead Blade, OK 3,5 centimeters.
Nosler 168 and 180gr E-tip. OK both types stay within 4 centimeter.
FOX Classic. 150 and 165gr. Perfect, stay within the 2.2 centimeter.
DK bullets 130, 150 and 180gr, really bad some went of the electronic black zone.

.

problem solved.....

 

[Heym SR20]

There were problems with older rifles, especially doubles where barrel wall thickness are thin, with the first monolithic bullets. These had straight walls with no where for the metal displaced by the rifling to go. Monolithics are either pure copper, or an alloy of copper. Pretty much the same material that is used in the jackets of a jacket bullet. With a straight wall design the softer core can deform.

Most of the modern monolithics have grooves that allow the displaced metal to flow into. Indeed the likes of the peregrine have a diameter from top of land to top of land with four driving bands. Net effect is that there is less bullet in contact with barrel thus less drag and wear.

Most rifle barrel wear is actually due to heat of the burning powder. Barrel life is very subjective and really is a function of how its used. Lots of rapid shots burns barrels out. But with a hunting rifle a couple of shots in a day is a good result.

I am totally happy using monolithics in my 7x57 and 7x65r both of which were built 50 years ago. Plenty of vintage rifles are now using monolithics. I know of a couple of high velocity small bores by top english makers 100 years ago using monolithics. Bear in mind likes of Rigby, Holland and Holland etc used to supply steel cored solids for use in big game double rifles.

I don't think these modern bullets will materially affect the life of the barrel, and certainly not in a typical hunting rifle. Fine old rifles tend to be the sort of gun you use, bit use sparingly. Certainly with the two of mine I shoot perhaps 20 rounds through each per year, and its a shot or two on target to check zero and then i go hunting.

And rifle barrels are all more or less temperamental. Some like bullets better than others, regardless of bullet construction. Some barrels are very forgiving and will shoot pretty much any load with any brand of bullet, others change a load by 0.1 gn and groups open up. Some brands of bullets are easy to load for. Fox you can pretty much just scoop up some powder, dump the bullet on top and they work. Perregrines seem a bit fussier - you need to be accurate with powder and neck tension.

Finally we are talking bullets for hunting. Terminal bullet performance is more important than tiny little groups. Whilst 2cm groups are wonderful to brag about, a group two or three times that is more than adequate to shoot any big game animal out to sensible ranges.

And statistics will argue that groups of just a few bullets mean really little. You probably need 10 or more to really have idea of true accuracy of a load.

 

[scotch_egg]

There were problems with older rifles, especially doubles where barrel wall thickness are thin, with the first monolithic bullets. These had straight walls with no where for the metal displaced by the rifling to go. Monolithics are either pure copper, or an alloy of copper. Pretty much the same material that is used in the jackets of a jacket bullet. With a straight wall design the softer core can deform.

Most of the modern monolithics have grooves that allow the displaced metal to flow into. Indeed the likes of the peregrine have a diameter from top of land to top of land with four driving bands. Net effect is that there is less bullet in contact with barrel thus less drag and wear.

Most rifle barrel wear is actually due to heat of the burning powder. Barrel life is very subjective and really is a function of how its used. Lots of rapid shots burns barrels out. But with a hunting rifle a couple of shots in a day is a good result.

I am totally happy using monolithics in my 7x57 and 7x65r both of which were built 50 years ago. Plenty of vintage rifles are now using monolithics. I know of a couple of high velocity small bores by top english makers 100 years ago using monolithics. Bear in mind likes of Rigby, Holland and Holland etc used to supply steel cored solids for use in big game double rifles.

I don't think these modern bullets will materially affect the life of the barrel, and certainly not in a typical hunting rifle. Fine old rifles tend to be the sort of gun you use, bit use sparingly. Certainly with the two of mine I shoot perhaps 20 rounds through each per year, and its a shot or two on target to check zero and then i go hunting.

And rifle barrels are all more or less temperamental. Some like bullets better than others, regardless of bullet construction. Some barrels are very forgiving and will shoot pretty much any load with any brand of bullet, others change a load by 0.1 gn and groups open up. Some brands of bullets are easy to load for. Fox you can pretty much just scoop up some powder, dump the bullet on top and they work. Perregrines seem a bit fussier - you need to be accurate with powder and neck tension.

Finally we are talking bullets for hunting. Terminal bullet performance is more important than tiny little groups. Whilst 2cm groups are wonderful to brag about, a group two or three times that is more than adequate to shoot any big game animal out to sensible ranges.

And statistics will argue that groups of just a few bullets mean really little. You probably need 10 or more to really have idea of true accuracy of a load.

Don’t forget about rifling twist and stability. The heavier lead free bullets will have to be longer and will take more to stabilise than a traditional cup and core bullet.

 

[bobo]

SAKO 170gr Powerhead Blade, OK 3,5 centimeters.
Nosler 168 and 180gr E-tip. OK both types stay within 4 centimeter.
FOX Classic. 150 and 165gr. Perfect, stay within the 2.2 centimeter.
DK bullets 130, 150 and 180gr, really bad some went of the electronic black zone.

.

problem solved.....

It is now for me as a reloader, FOX is quite new here in this country, 5 years ago they where more or less unknown here.
FOX bullets have quickly gained a good reputation, but we usually only get loose bullets for reloading, and not easy to come by.
Factory loaded FOX are still very rare here.

I have a feeling RUAG (with their different brands) is sitting heavy on the rifle ammunition market here, and other brands have problems passing by them in the shops.
RUAG products are almost always the 1 ones on the shelf in the shops.

By the way, i dont have anything against RUAG, they make some good stuff.

 

[bobo]

My Krico 30-06 is from 1971, and has a 1:11 twist rate.

Experiences here show the twist rate and age of the rifle don´t really make so much difference.
New rifles, slow or fast twist, can have same problems (or lack of problems) as older, after all most bolt action rifles, old or new, take lead free bullets without problems.
Its just not funny to be the one to own a problem rifle, until the problem is solved.

 

[jthyttin]

You really don't want to use 180gr E-Tip in 1-11" twist.

And out of Barnes offerings, you want rather 168gr TTSX not 165gr (designed for magnum speeds and shorter COAL as measured byt exposed bullet).

 

[bobo]

You really don't want to use 180gr E-Tip in 1-11" twist.

And out of Barnes offerings, you want rather 168gr TTSX not 165gr (designed for magnum speeds and shorter COAL as measured byt exposed bullet).

The 168gr TTSX has a very bad reputation. To many lots did not expand, and might just have been FMJ.
I dont know if it is better today, but in Germany 10 years ago some forresters forbade the use of that bullet on thier hunts.
Bad reputation is hard to get rid of, and i dont even se them in the shops any more.

180gr used to be the norm for 308 and 30-06 here, they recomend going down to 165gr with lead free, but again, old habits change slowly.
Nosler has good reputation so the 180gr E-tip is popular, and shoots well in most rifles, many of them have 1-11 or 1-12 twist.

 

[Heym SR20]

Don’t forget about rifling twist and stability. The heavier lead free bullets will have to be longer and will take more to stabilise than a traditional cup and core bullet.

Yes and no. Generally with a lead free bullet choose a bullet that is the same length as the traditional bullet.

It will be a bit lighter, but with lower weight and less resistance it will leave the barrel faster. On impact the monolithic will stay in one piece and thus retain its momentum and be able to penetrate deeply. A lead cored bullet will loose a substantial proportion of ot weight as lead material goes into lots of tiny little parts, and the remaining has a lot less momentum.

Also don’t forget that many of the old cartridges were designed with long heavy for calibre bullets 220 in 30-06, 173 round nose in 7x57, 156 round nose in 6.5x54 Mannlicher and 6.5x55 swede etc. Such rifles all had pretty fast twists as standard to stabilise those long heavy bullets at velocities of 2000 to 2400 fps.

So even in little cartridges like the 243 you don’t need a heavy monolithic to work. An 80gn FOX is longer than most 100gn soft points, but shoots accurately and its effect on large red deer is superb.

 

[enfieldspares]

Years ago, many years ago, I used to sage commercially .455 Webley Mk II, Mark III and Mark IV bullets using Corbin equipment. So I've some small knowledge of bullet swaging. This thread raises and interesting thought. In some obsolete calibres it has been possible to still shoot them by bumping up standard bullets of a lesser diameter.

Usual examples were swaging up .243" bullets to be used in the .240" Holland & Holland (and .244" Holland & Holland) and also .284" bullets to be used in the .280" Ross. The late Gillie Howe at one time also swaged up standard .303" bullets to be used by the then Prince Charles in an old .303" target rifle that had an oversize bore.

I wonder if lead is to be banned how these old calibres will be "fed" as certainly the cost of setting up and machining copper bullets of appropriate size will require access to a lathe (and room to house such) rather than a mere simple swaging set up.

 

[Ginc]

And out of Barnes offerings, you want rather 168gr TTSX not 165gr (designed for magnum speeds and shorter COAL as measured byt exposed bullet).

I never had problems with Barnes 165gr Ttsx launched at 800ms from 308win cartridge. Used on everything- from fox, to big red deer stag, typical range <160m. Home loads using Viht N540, groups from bench is nice 0,5MOA.

 

[Smellydog]

Anyway, what is this " vintage" thing.

I think it's quite current or contemporary, no?

 

[bobo]

"vintage" is pr definition stuff produced between 1920 and 1979. I have been clealy educated, by my oldest son, on that matter, who states my language is the last leftover from the Neandertahl kulture, so i try to modernize it.
In my mind my age is 20, but when i look at my birth certificate (and in the mirror), im pr. definition a "vintage" man.

Its one of those modern fancy words that has become soo popular here.
I speak old South Danish language, its very different from modern Danish they speak in the cities and television.
Many yong people here, espeacially from the cities, dont understand old South Danish, so i like to tease them with mixing in those fancy modern words. Then the young folks say im an "Unwoke" old grumpy man.
Sorry for mixing my little teasings of those modern words in here.

 

[Heym SR20]

Years ago, many years ago, I used to sage commercially .455 Webley Mk II, Mark III and Mark IV bullets using Corbin equipment. So I've some small knowledge of bullet swaging. This thread raises and interesting thought. In some obsolete calibres it has been possible to still shoot them by bumping up standard bullets of a lesser diameter.

Usual examples were swaging up .243" bullets to be used in the .240" Holland & Holland (and .244" Holland & Holland) and also .284" bullets to be used in the .280" Ross. The late Gillie Howe at one time also swaged up standard .303" bullets to be used by the then Prince Charles in an old .303" target rifle that had an oversize bore.

I wonder if lead is to be banned how these old calibres will be "fed" as certainly the cost of setting up and machining copper bullets of appropriate size will require access to a lathe (and room to house such) rather than a mere simple swaging set up.

The beauty on monolithics, Computer aided design and computer controlled machines is that its pretty simple to go one of smaller bullet manufacturers and have a batch of bullets made up.

It doesn’t take much time to shrink or expand an existing design to the odd bore size and then send the file to the machine. And then have a batch made up.

As the shooter you get your bullets, for the company they then have the files for the future. I do know that a number of the big bore vintage calibres which were catered for by woodleigh have been picked and digitised up by the likes of Peregrine etc., after Woodleighs factory burned down.

Alternatively you would use a zinc cored bullet and swage that up and down.

There are still plenty of enthusiastic vintage rifle shooters out there. There is a Vintage Arms Rifle club up here in Edinburgh and ingenuity of some of their members is amazing. Some are recreating old needle fire rifles and ammunition for no other reason than that they can. If there is a will there is a way.

 

[Scipio]

It is now for me as a reloader, FOX is quite new here in this country, 5 years ago they where more or less unknown here.
FOX bullets have quickly gained a good reputation, but we usually only get loose bullets for reloading, and not easy to come by.
Factory loaded FOX are still very rare here.

I have a feeling RUAG (with their different brands) is sitting heavy on the rifle ammunition market here, and other brands have problems passing by them in the shops.
RUAG products are almost always the 1 ones on the shelf in the shops.

By the way, i dont have anything against RUAG, they make some good stuff.

Hej Bobo, and salutations form Sjælland

This post might be arriving a bit late to the party, but Tacdane seems to sell both fox projectiles and fox loaded ammunition in Denmark. I think they are based on Lolland (or Falster).
Now unfortunately ammo shipment prices always seem expensive here in Denmark, even if it is for non explosive components ,like bullets, however tacdane at least seem to charge a bit less than most, quoting 229 to ship it to me here in Copenhagen i think rather than the 500 i have been quoted by most other dealers.

Update: Yep, they do have loaded Fox ammo in both 150 and 165 grns: 30-06 - TacDane