Government responds to 2023 firearms licensing consultation

[timbrayford]

I think the point is, if someone doesn’t have genuine good reason to possess a firearm, they want one just to have one, at the very least it needs a little more interrogation.

As posted above, being a member of a club isn’t the only way to show good reason. Plenty of quarry shooters never go near a club in their lives, but they still get out and shoot regularly, so they have good reason for the guns not just because they want them.

It's not a matter good reason, as you rightly point out this may be satisfied otherwise, the big issue in respect of public safety is spotting the social misfits unfit to be entrusted with a firearm. In short, Hungerford, provisional club member only, Dunblane, refused membership from at least two clubs, Plymouth, not even a club member? FLDs appear to make serious errors of judgement that the shooting community doesn't, but we all pay the price. What is there to fear from club membership?

 

[charlie222]

er...Thomas Hamilton...refused membership of at least two clubs, who unlike the FLD realised that he was not fit to be entrusted. I do wonder if those opposed to socialising with their fellow shooters haven't got something to hide? Otherwise what is there to be afraid of?

I was genuinely asking the question about the mass shooters, I stand corrected.
While I have no interest in joining a big formal club, I understand others do. I prefer smaller, friendly shoots often that I've organized myself.
I have concerns for shooting clubs because I can see this government may use them as another level of the screening process. With this will come added responsibility, training and administration for clubs to manage at their own cost.
Just look at the recent knife crime nonsense. They've effectively put the responsibility on the retailers that sell knives, not just the business owners but the person on the tills. Why? Because its cost them nothing to implement.

 

[timbrayford]

I was genuinely asking the question about the mass shooters, I stand corrected.
While I have no interest in joining a big formal club, I understand others do. I prefer smaller, friendly shoots often that I've organized myself.
I have concerns for shooting clubs because I can see this government may use them as another level of the screening process. With this will come added responsibility, training and administration for clubs to manage at their own cost.
Just look at the recent knife crime nonsense. They've effectively put the responsibility on the retailers that sell knives, not just the business owners but the person on the tills. Why? Because its cost them nothing to implement.

If I recall correctly at least one of the FLDs requires club membership, I'll post a link if I find it. However I think that its very unfair that the shooting community should have to put up with ridiculous restrictions on our shooting activities merely to accommodate anti social loners who aren't fit to be entrusted in the first place.

 

[Pete_Cambs]

I was genuinely asking the question about the mass shooters, I stand corrected.
While I have no interest in joining a big formal club, I understand others do. I prefer smaller, friendly shoots often that I've organized myself.
I have concerns for shooting clubs because I can see this government may use them as another level of the screening process. With this will come added responsibility, training and administration for clubs to manage at their own cost.
Just look at the recent knife crime nonsense. They've effectively put the responsibility on the retailers that sell knives, not just the business owners but the person on the tills. Why? Because its cost them nothing to implement.

it’s not about fear, it just doesn’t really work for shotguns in any form.

You could join a clay club but as I’ve mentioned I have done this at 2 separate grounds and neither would know me beyond maybe recognising my face and certainly wouldn’t have a clue about my temperament or mental state.

When i got my SGC I actually went and had some lessons while applying as it just made sense for me to learn how to shoot and handle a shotgun properly, this counted in my favour as the same instructor had also given lessons to FEO that processed my application so this is about the only way I can think of that it could work for shotguns - a multi session safety / training course but the cost of it would be key.

 

[charlie222]

In a previous post I quoted figures from the ONS showing ten percent of all gun crime was attributed to shotguns and one percent to rifles, there's no figure to define if they were legally owned.
Our mantra should be, the risk to the public is from unlicensed firearms, what are you doing about it?

 

[cjm1066]

Wasn't this a murder/suicide, for these pillows are frequently used, perhaps pillows need licensing.

As a society we keep focusing on the tools, not the wider problems.

 

[Liveonce]

.
Our mantra should be, the risk to the public is from unlicensed firearms, what are you doing about it?

nothing far easier to get the headline news by persecuting legal gun ownership.

For all mass shootings in this country and there have been relatively few, opportunities were missed by the Police to have stoped them happing. Plymouth is a perfect example, but rather than place the blame on the Police they deflect the blame on to the perpetrator and firearm, which then goes on to require yet tougher firearm laws. And they know we just keep quite and comply.

 

[25 Sharps]

It's not a matter good reason, as you rightly point out this may be satisfied otherwise, the big issue in respect of public safety is spotting the social misfits unfit to be entrusted with a firearm. In short, Hungerford, provisional club member only, Dunblane, refused membership from at least two clubs, Plymouth, not even a club member? FLDs appear to make serious errors of judgement that the shooting community doesn't, but we all pay the price. What is there to fear from club membership?

Nothing at all, but it shouldn’t be a prerequisite as plenty of people only shoot in the field.

 

[Smellydog]

Stalkers are notoriously unsociable. That's one of the things that attracted me to the sport. The "groupy" mentality that seems to go with driven game, clays and other shooting disciplines is most off-putting, I find.
Perhaps I'm hiding something

Me too, prefer my own company when out except the dog.
I'll think nothing on a nice evening having a plink to keep my eye and trigger coordination.
Actually, it's society and collective group thinking that encourages me to keep away!

As we are seeing with driven pheasant shooting and organisations that represent them they are so concerned with the public image they throw their own kind on the fire in desperation. If that's the committee way then it's not for me!

 

[25 Sharps]

Stalkers are notoriously unsociable. That's one of the things that attracted me to the sport. The "groupy" mentality that seems to go with driven game, clays and other shooting disciplines is most off-putting, I find.
Perhaps I'm hiding something

I don’t know about that, I’ve made some very good friends through stalking. Including a bunch of lads I met through a mutual friend, helping out culling in the new forest.

Stalking, wise I like stalking with others, particularly introducing people to the sport. And the clubs are just a good craic with like minded folk.

 

[JTO]

Convincing a load of 18-25 year olds, getting paid peanuts and often on minimum wage to go through all that just to shoot a .22 in most cases is a tough task,

Minimum wage is £11.44 an hour once you are old enough to be worth anything.
It's all a question of priorities, £5 for a cup of coffee...........

 

[JTO]

Stalkers are notoriously unsociable.

Also applies to wildfowlers, who all have shotguns!

 

[JTO]

Most clubs I have approached have always been a bit cagey about taster days with large groups of new people
Many clubs, again in my experience, have been very cliquey and often don't offer the type of atmosphere that's opening to those wanting modern disciplines.

There are clubs that cater for F-class, not much more modern than that!
Perhaps you are referring to Combat Shotgun AKA Practical Shotgun, or Paintball. You can join the TA for that!

 

[Subsistence]

Minimum wage is £11.44 an hour once you are old enough to be worth anything.
It's all a question of priorities, £5 for a cup of coffee...........

As someone that works very close to minimum wage, this viewpoint is a bit off, I and I'm sure many others in my earnings bracket do not drink £5 coffee's, out of necessity I drink the cheapest coffee I can get from Aldi. Further increasing costs would certainly price out new enterents in similar earnings brackets to myself. It would be nice if I could join a club however I don't think I would be able to afford it even if there was any local to me.

Shooting in the field is the only way for me to afford to shoot, however it's tricky to find shooting especially when cost is such a large factor.

 

[JTO]

As someone that works very close to minimum wage, this viewpoint is a bit off,

I did over 4 years on the minimum wage when it was £4.75 and hour, did s**tloads of overtime and worked nights, sometime seven a week. In my last two years, my topline was over £20,000, and that was with the immigrants getting as much overtime as they wanted, while we were limited to how much we were allowed.
One Eastern European working with us, had a wife with four cleaning jobs, and between them, they saved £20,000 in a year.
You can have ANYTHING nowadays, but you can't have EVERYTHING!

 

[Subsistence]

I did over 4 years on the minimum wage when it was £4.75 and hour, did s**tloads of overtime and worked nights, sometime seven a week. In my last two years, my topline was over £20,000, and that was with the immigrants getting as much overtime as they wanted, while we were limited to how much we were allowed.
One Eastern European working with us, had a wife with four cleaning jobs, and between them, they saved £20,000 in a year.
You can have ANYTHING nowadays, but you can't have EVERYTHING!

Good for you, unfortunately i cant work every hour under the sun as I have other commitments that need my attention.

Yes I understand potentially you could work more hours or have additional jobs, however that then leads to not having time to do your hobbies, and the same people that would like to shoot, can now afford it, but don't have time for it. The problem remains, fewer new entrants to the shooting community.

 

[Heym SR20]

Is this an opportunity?

“The government therefore intends to issue a new consultation on improving and aligning the controls on shotguns with other firearms”.

This is an opportunity to analysis the evidence, theft/suicides/murders etc committed with legally held guns. We need to ascertain if the licensing of:

• SGC - Individuals as undertaken for shotguns who can buy and sell guns at will
• FAC - firearms which are licensed on a gun by gun basis

Which produces the best outcome?

The Home Office Guide on Firearms Licensing Law categories the use of rifles for quarry shooting as:

• Vermin & ground game and other small quarry
• Fox and other medium quarry
• Deer and other large quarry
• Dangerous Game

If we license by categories such as “Deer and other large quarry” rifles, does it matter to any one if you swap a 243 Tikka for a 6.5 Blaser? That could be done online at the RFD and keep you within the number your FAC authorises.

PS, I appreciate that 243 v 6.5 and Blaser v Tikka are fascinating topics but can we discuss them on another thread?

PPS its clear where effort is needed Keyham Inquest

Just had a quick scan of the Coroners concerns.

Fundamentally he has no concerns over the Firearms Licensing legislation. He has major concerns over successive Police Forces and Governments to implement proper Firearms Licensing with adequately trained FEOs who actually know what they are doing, with ongoing reporting and willingness to respond to intelligence to take appropriate action as regards legally held firearms in the hands of individuals who for whatever reason may no longer be a “fit and proper person”.

The law is there, the procedures are there, its a failing on government and the police to do things properly.

@Conor O'Gorman I think this is where the BASC and your partner organisations should focus attention of government etc.

 

[Kane01]

Minimum wage is £11.44 an hour once you are old enough to be worth anything.
It's all a question of priorities, £5 for a cup of coffee...........

Like I said, 18-25 year olds, so that includes the 18, 19 and 20 year old students living off £8.60 an hour who especially struggle in finding the funds when their student loads often barely cover living costs.

 

[Kane01]

There are clubs that cater for F-class, not much more modern than that!
Perhaps you are referring to Combat Shotgun AKA Practical Shotgun, or Paintball. You can join the TA for that!

Nothing wrong with wanting practical rifle and shotgun, and modern disciplines in general. They are some of the fastest growing disciplines in the UK, and probably the only hope of keeping the sport alive as far as bringing in younger shooters is concerned.
I used to do the Match Rifle, Gallery Rifle and CSR courses for the rifle group I volunteered with, CSR was by far the most popular course every single time, seeing all those people smile every time we used AR-15s (Even in straight pull) was great!

 

[JTO]

Nothing wrong with wanting practical rifle and shotgun, and modern disciplines in general. They are some of the fastest growing disciplines in the UK, and probably the only hope of keeping the sport alive as far as bringing in younger shooters is concerned.
I used to do the Match Rifle, Gallery Rifle and CSR courses for the rifle group I volunteered with, CSR was by far the most popular course every single time, seeing all those people smile every time we used AR-15s (Even in straight pull) was great!

Why don't you form a club yourself?