Advice on gun licence being revoked please.

[fishingcinma]

If you were defending your daughter then self defence applies. I assume the CRO acts like a caution so if you accept it you have plead guilty to the offence. No help to you but CRO’s and cautions are used when the police know they probably won’t get it to court and can fluff up their conviction numbers. Best of luck with your appeal.

Thank you for your advise the police officer explained the CRO as below. But you have to admit to what you did, which I did as in my eyes it was pointless lying about it. As soon as the officer arrived I told him I know why your here can I explain why I did what I did and proceded to explain the whole incident. He then went on to say about the CRO

Although a CRO doesn't result in a criminal record, the information can be used if further offenses are committed.
a community resolution order is not a caution. It's a voluntary agreement between an offender and a victim that's used to resolve low-level offenses

 

[fishingcinma]

I would dispute the removal of ancillaries, scopes thermals etc, mine would not be going off to damage central.

Thank you for your advice, they just said about taking everything including the aor rifle, scopes, expired licence, current licence everything.

I asked about if I were going to receive anything to say what they had taken and they said it would be emailed over to me.

 

[andyk]

As much as it’ll cost money, if you’re thinking of appealing get a legal opinion and put your ‘cards on the table’ when doing so - there’s no point otherwise.

The standard rule is that you don’t recover your legal costs if you succeed and will pay theirs if you lose. That may be altered if they’re found to have acted unreasonably or improperly.

A firearms appeal allows the Judge to substitute their own decision for that of the FLM. So, you can succeed on one even if the FLM’s decision is a reasonable one.

However, I wouldn’t personally bring an appeal unless the decision is one that no reasonable FLM could take. Otherwise, you’re gambling a lot on the Judge on the day deciding to substitute their decision where they could properly choose not to.

Personally, I wouldn’t have thought revocation in this situation is outside of the bounds of reasonable decision making. So, I’d sit tight and keep my nose clean.

 

[fishingcinma]

Thank you for taking the time to provide me with such a detailed honest response it's appreciated.

 

[sikamalc]

You didn't mention whether you had points on your driving licence for the speeding offences?

Excessive speeding over several instances is not being responsible, and that is worded on your FAC.

These days the police will look at any excuse to take someones FAC off them. To be honest grabbing the guy would be something most would do to defend their daughter. However as FAC owners we are bound to be responsible. That word covers a whole host of issues.
In hindsight you would have been better off making a formal complaint about the other man with the police and his place of work.

I would at least approach the Firearms manager again by letter and explain the situation again. However I think you may be lucky to get your licence back at present.

 

[63]

If you were defending your daughter then self defence applies. I assume the CRO acts like a caution so if you accept it you have plead guilty to the offence. No help to you but CRO’s and cautions are used when the police know they probably won’t get it to court and can fluff up their conviction numbers. Best of luck with your appeal.

If he was defending his daughter from imminent harm ‘in the moment’ then he could have claimed self defence, but if he went around the guys house and choked him out whilst explaining he should leave the daughter alone, then it’s a push. Could be either from the way it’s written.

 

[Apthorpe]

I think that three minor speeding offences 18/19years ago are completely irrelevant and absolutely no sort of justification for revoking a licence. The fact they listed them is indicative of an unreasonable attitude on the part of the police when assessing your suitability.

I think your mistake was to accept the sanction you received for handling that person. Generally speaking, someone ought never accept a caution or other non-judicial sanction without having taken legal advice. It may be the case that there was some procedural impropriety in issuing this.
Anything you do about this will be fairly expensive and only you can judge if it's worthwhile, but I'd think there was sufficient scope for getting advice to challenge on
A) The incident with the other person wasn't handled well by anyone and because the police sought to deal with it by avoiding a court case nobody has independently assessed what happened. (It might have been self-defence of your daughter...or it might not).
B) That th epokice may have acted unreasonably in its decision to revoke by relying on a series of minor traffic offences decades ago which are not usually any cause for police concern at all. (Since they aren't proper crimes but just licensed extortion by the police.)

 

[SimpleSimon]

Best advice?

Don't ask for legal advice here.

 

[hendrix's rifle]

I think that three minor speeding offences 18/19years ago are completely irrelevant and absolutely no sort of justification for revoking a licence. The fact they listed them is indicative of an unreasonable attitude on the part of the police when assessing your suitability.

I think your mistake was to accept the sanction you received for handling that person. Generally speaking, someone ought never accept a caution or other non-judicial sanction without having taken legal advice. It may be the case that there was some procedural impropriety in issuing this.
Anything you do about this will be fairly expensive and only you can judge if it's worthwhile, but I'd think there was sufficient scope for getting advice to challenge on
A) The incident with the other person wasn't handled well by anyone and because the police sought to deal with it by avoiding a court case nobody has independently assessed what happened. (It might have been self-defence of your daughter...or it might not).
B) That th epokice may have acted unreasonably in its decision to revoke by relying on a series of minor traffic offences decades ago which are not usually any cause for police concern at all. (Since they aren't proper crimes but just licensed extortion by the police.)

You genuinely don't have a clue do you

 

[fishingcinma]

If he was defending his daughter from imminent harm ‘in the moment’ then he could have claimed self defence, but if he went around the guys house and choked him out whilst explaining he should leave the daughter alone, then it’s a push. Could be either from the way it’s written.

I didn't go round the guys house and choke him out.

 

[fishingcinma]

You didn't mention whether you had points on your driving licence for the speeding offences?

Excessive speeding over several instances is not being responsible, and that is worded on your FAC.

These days the police will look at any excuse to take someones FAC off them. To be honest grabbing the guy would be something most would do to defend their daughter. However as FAC owners we are bound to be responsible. That word covers a whole host of issues.
In hindsight you would have been better off making a formal complaint about the other man with the police and his place of work.

I would at least approach the Firearms manager again by letter and explain the situation again. However I think you may be lucky to get your licence back at present.

Thank you for your reply no points were given for the sp30's speed awareness course.

I agree in hindsight I should have taken my Daughter to the police station and have them deal with the matter.

I will approach the firearms manager and explain the situation to be honest I thought that they would have wanted to discuss the matter before making a decision nieve of me I know.

Many Thanks again

 

[fishingcinma]

I think that three minor speeding offences 18/19years ago are completely irrelevant and absolutely no sort of justification for revoking a licence. The fact they listed them is indicative of an unreasonable attitude on the part of the police when assessing your suitability.

I think your mistake was to accept the sanction you received for handling that person. Generally speaking, someone ought never accept a caution or other non-judicial sanction without having taken legal advice. It may be the case that there was some procedural impropriety in issuing this.
Anything you do about this will be fairly expensive and only you can judge if it's worthwhile, but I'd think there was sufficient scope for getting advice to challenge on
A) The incident with the other person wasn't handled well by anyone and because the police sought to deal with it by avoiding a court case nobody has independently assessed what happened. (It might have been self-defence of your daughter...or it might not).
B) That th epokice may have acted unreasonably in its decision to revoke by relying on a series of minor traffic offences decades ago which are not usually any cause for police concern at all. (Since they aren't proper crimes but just licensed extortion by the police.)

Thank you for your reply

I was nieve in the fact that I did it and told the truth, I saw no point in lying about the incident.

I thought I would post here to see if anyone had similar experiences and what they did.

The letter states I can appeal within 21 days but it's looking like I wouldn't win a appeal anyway. So I'm better off looking into getting them transfered over/stored/sold.

Many thanks again

 

[63]

I didn't go round the guys house and choke him out.

Sorry - that comment maybe seemed a bit flippant from your perspective. I wasn’t really suggesting you had.

My point was just that it’s not ‘obviously self defence’ based on the little information available. Only you know what you did, and you’re probably best placed to judge whether you were acting within the law (and thus should appeal) or not, and thus need to take it on the chin.

Either way, I’d echo @SimpleSimon and suggest we’re not the people to be giving you legal advice. I’d speak to a solicitor if I were you.

(And no, I’m not asking you to explain exactly what happened on here, that’s probably not on anyone’s interests.)

 

[paul o']

This is sadly why we are easy targets and are treated as door mats we can't defend our kin let alone ourselves any reason the force can find to remove your rights ! your the aggressor but never the victim guilty until at our cost its up to us prove ourselves innocent? Laws an ass
They won't defend our kin and should something bad happen the words "we are sorry we let you down oh and lessons will be learnt ? Get anything damaged never a visit but you will get an insurance number ???
Any bolt on none pressure components scopes etc must be returned and all items removed are still yours ! Find an RFD of your choice and have your items handed to them as I hope none were used in a crime.? Do hope you were allowed to watch and noted how your items were treated ! If not any damage that you can't prove is at your loss.

 

[fishingcinma]

Sorry - that comment maybe seemed a bit flippant from your perspective. I wasn’t really suggesting you had.

My point was just that it’s not ‘obviously self defence’ based on the little information available. Only you know what you did, and you’re probably best placed to judge whether you were acting within the law (and thus should appeal) or not, and thus need to take it on the chin.

Either way, I’d echo @SimpleSimon and suggest we’re not the people to be giving you legal advice. I’d speak to a solicitor if I were you.

(And no, I’m not asking you to explain exactly what happened on here, that’s probably not on anyone’s interests.)

Thank you for your reply

No as you say it wouldn't be classed as self defence.

I grabbed his shoulder and neck to stop him being able to swing for me should he want to.
Told him to never contact my Daughter again.

I have been open and honest about the situation incase anyone else in the group had experienced similar and how it was dealt with. No point in being untruthful.

The sense I'm getting is that incident along with the sp30's and failure to notify driver is enough to no have the appeal overturned.

Thanks again for your advice

 

[fishingcinma]

This is sadly why we are easy targets and are treated as door mats we can't defend our kin let alone ourselves any reason the force can find to remove your rights ! your the aggressor but never the victim guilty until at our cost its up to us prove ourselves innocent? Laws an ass
They won't defend our kin and should something bad happen the words "we are sorry we let you down oh and lessons will be learnt ? Get anything damaged never a visit but you will get an insurance number ???
Any bolt on none pressure components scopes etc must be returned and all items removed are still yours ! Find an RFD of your choice and have your items handed to them as I hope none were used in a crime.? Do hope you were allowed to watch and noted how your items were treated ! If not any damage that you can't prove is at your loss.

Thank you for your detailed reply I agree with what you have said.

As I replied to someone else's years back my Father was working at someone's property in a block of flats, outside his van getting more supplies when one of the residents took a spirit level from my Dad's van and proceded to smash him over the head with it knocking him out and fractured his skull.

The police arrested the man and the case got taken to court the offenders defence was "I thought it was my van being broken into again" the van was a different colour.

What did the offender get? Nothing, compensation for my Father? Nothing the bloke has a house in Spain too.

I questioned how it was going to be documented what they were taking and they said I would receive an email, they had body cams on.

I was allowed to watch and asked to fit thr guns into their cases.

Many thanks again

 

[63]

Thank you for your reply

No as you say it wouldn't be classed as self defence.

I grabbed his shoulder and neck to stop him being able to swing for me should he want to.
Told him to never contact my Daughter again.

I have been open and honest about the situation incase anyone else in the group had experienced similar and how it was dealt with. No point in being untruthful.

The sense I'm getting is that incident along with the sp30's and failure to notify driver is enough to no have the appeal overturned.

Thanks again for your advice

I’m going to take a risk here and offer some non-legal but what I hope is common sense advice, mostly for anyone reading this thread in a year's time. I am not a solicitor or a lawyer, but I have had the dubious privilege of sitting in court and watching around 30-40 trials (both magistrates and crown), mostly for violent offences, and I have been a witness to a couple of assaults and given statements etc.

Based on all that, I would suggest that if you are involved in an altercation, scuffle or fight and acted in what you honestly felt was self defence then you must

1. Report it to the Police immediately.

2. Obtain legal advice immediately.

In my experience self defence law is not what people imagine it to be, and it is more subjective than other areas as whether an act is self-defence or not rests, to some degree, on what both parties honestly believed was happening, and whether the magistrate or jury judge that their actions were reasonable under the circumstances. That leaves a lot of room for confusion, bias, dishonesty and mistakes to play out from both parties and the police, perhaps more so than with other offences.

I would really really urge you to go and get legal advice about both the incident in question and the revocation.

 

[Liveonce]

sadly the likely significant cost of appealing would likely be a waste of money, accept you made a bad decision, wait five years and reapply.

However I would be requesting an RFD collect the firearms and I assume sub 12ft/lbs airgun. You can then take possession of the scopes and as in England the airgun. See if a friend or two can take any section 2 shotguns and possibly any section 1 rifle/s. If a friend takes possession of the shotgun you can still use it in their presence at a clay ground with a section 11 (6) exemption.

 

[fishingcinma]

I’m going to take a risk here and offer some non-legal but what I hope is common sense advice, mostly for anyone reading this thread in a year's time. I am not a solicitor or a lawyer, but I have had the dubious privilege of sitting in court and watching around 30-40 trials (both magistrates and crown), mostly for violent offences, and I have been a witness to a couple of assaults and given statements etc.

Based on all that, I would suggest that if you are involved in an altercation, scuffle or fight and acted in what you honestly felt was self defence then you must

1. Report it to the Police immediately.

2. Obtain legal advice immediately.

In my experience self defence law is not what people imagine it to be, and it is more subjective than other areas as whether an act is self-defence or not rests, to some degree, on what both parties honestly believed was happening, and whether the magistrate or jury judge that their actions were reasonable under the circumstances. That leaves a lot of room for confusion, bias, dishonesty and mistakes to play out from both parties and the police, perhaps more so than with other offences.

I would really really urge you to go and get legal advice about both the incident in question and the revocation.

Thank you for taking the time to provide me with a detailed reply to my post it's appreciated.

 

[fishingcinma]

sadly the likely significant cost of appealing would likely be a waste of money, accept you made a bad decision, wait five years and reapply.

However I would be requesting an RFD collect the firearms and I assume sub 12ft/lbs airgun. You can then take possession of the scopes and as in England the airgun. See if a friend or two can take any section 2 shotguns and possibly any section 1 rifle/s. If a friend takes possession of the shotgun you can still use it in their presence at a clay ground with a section 11 (6) exemption.

This is what I'm feeling too, I have already emailed some RFD and will call some in my local area tomorrow.

Yes airgun is sub 12

I have just looked and found the email from the police listing the firearms and they have not listed the scopes so have just replied asking for an updated list and or bodycam footage.

Thank you for your advice I appreciate it.