Many years ago I was tasked with catching up a herd of park red deer that the owner had failed to catch. These were to be loaded live into a livestock truck and transported elsewhere. The owner had failed because he had a temper and not a lot of brain. Every time he tried to drive the deer into a small fenced ares he had created one particular hind took them all off which infuriated him so much he got his rifle and shot it. Within 30 mins another hind took on her role and did the same thing at which point he gave up. A week later having given them time to calm down we got them all in the lorry within an hour.
Shooting the lead doe
- Thread starter Donkey Basher
- Start date
I should also have said that it can just as easily be a stag that leads all the others off. I did the fencing for a deer farm and 2-3 weeks after it was stocked the Animal Liberation Front cut the fences in about 8 places, each time cutting out 10 metre pieces. All the deer got out, about 150 of them, reds in this case. I got there later that morning, repaired 6 of the breaks and we managed to gently walk back in all the deer except 14 and moved them into safe internal paddocks leaving two gaps for the remainder should they make their way home. Next day we tried again to gently move the 14 back home except that it wasn't really home to them as they had only been there a few weeks. Every time we tried to nudge them in the desired direction one spiker made a break in the wrong direction and all this was within one field of the M5 and the risk of traffic accidents was too high so I shot the offender and the rest literally just turned round and trotted back to the fence line and in through one of the gaps.
I think we were just very very lucky to have got all bar one back in. I don't really think we could have called the spiker a herd leader either, he just had a different idea of where he wanted to go and the others were just happy to follow any lead.
Looking back over the years I have had so much luck when things could have been far worse.
I think we were just very very lucky to have got all bar one back in. I don't really think we could have called the spiker a herd leader either, he just had a different idea of where he wanted to go and the others were just happy to follow any lead.
Looking back over the years I have had so much luck when things could have been far worse.
Dan Newcombe
Well-Known Member
Have you found any rule of thumb as to which it tends to be? Wolves have a pretty set heirachy when travelling according to some things I have read and the head animals aren’t the front ones.
Shooting the one closest to where you don’t want them to go always appeals to be, no genuine reason but to my mind it makes sense to try and encourage the rest to run away from cover.
I take all this "lead hind / doe" stuff with a pinch of salt to be honest. Yes, at any particular time there will be one deer that does something and the others follow. Is it always the same deer, or is it down to the situation on the day? Unless you've got a single white doe in a group of black fallow it'll be pretty hard to say for sure it's the same old girl who always dictates the behaviour of the group.
So the idea that a single lead doe out of a group of 100 fallow is the only one with the experience and knowledge to keep the group together and ensure their survival through a tough winter doesn't sit well with me. I suspect what is more likely the case is the mature does all have a similar level of knowledge and, like most sociable animals, there will be stronger characters and weaker ones but I doubt there is any single animal who always dictates the behaviour of the whole group.
So the idea that a single lead doe out of a group of 100 fallow is the only one with the experience and knowledge to keep the group together and ensure their survival through a tough winter doesn't sit well with me. I suspect what is more likely the case is the mature does all have a similar level of knowledge and, like most sociable animals, there will be stronger characters and weaker ones but I doubt there is any single animal who always dictates the behaviour of the whole group.
I beg to differ, to a certain extent.
Although I accept I may be wrong - and there's a lot of people on this site with far more experience of deer than me, who may well disagree with me - having my own herd (now two herds, in fact) of fallow has enabled me to spend a lot of time observing their behaviour and the way they interact with one another, and what I see in my enclosed herds seems to me to be replicated in the wild. I've also spent my whole life working with livestock, so understanding animal behaviour is key to what I do every day.
It's true that there is often a big bodied mature doe out at the front of a herd of fallow when they're grazing or moving as a group in an undisturbed fashion. This "matriarch" is the one that people commonly (and understandably) refer to as the "lead doe". However at, or very near, the back of the herd is a less imposing looking doe which is nonetheless 10× more alert than all of the other deer in the group. This is the one that my observation has shown to be the real boss. While you're watching the one you believe to be the"lead doe", hoping that she doesn't spot you and raise the alarm, this other doe, that you've hardly even noticed, is almost certainly watching you. She's the one that raises the alarm (or is the first to respond, in the event of another deer in the group raising the alarm), whereupon she runs all the way through the herd, alerting every animal and causing them to bunch up, and then takes up her position at the front. Here she pauses - often only for a split second, if the threat is imminent, or sometimes for a longer period to observe the potential threat - and at this time you can see that the one you considered to be the "lead doe" is definitely subservient to her, and it is this doe, not your "lead doe" that decides in which direction the herd will run to safety, and how fast.
In one of my herds I have a distinctive pale coloured doe with a notch in her ear, so I have no trouble identifying that it is the same animal that adopts this behaviour every time. I also believe that the role is hereditary within the herd. Again, my doe has a similar coloured easily identifiable daughter that is showing the same behaviour, although remains subservient to her mother.
As for the perceived "lead doe", there is no doubt that her position within the herd is important, but I don't think it's hereditary. I think she's just old and bold. And her boldness may actually make her less cautious and alert than she should be, not more. When she's gone, another of similar stature and experience will take her place from within the ranks. Shooting her won't affect herd behaviour very much, I don't think. Maybe just their feeding pattern or the structure of their social sub-groups, but shooting the one that I have identified as the leader will leave the herd quite disorientated for a while, unless she has a daughter to step straight into the role.
That's my take on it, anyway.
I do think that people get told about the "lead doe" by more experienced stalkers when they're first starting out, and simply accept it as fact, backed up by incomplete observation. And in due course, they pass on this knowledge to another new stalker, and so on the myth gets perpetuated down through the generations without anyone questioning it.
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I've had the very good fortune to regularly hunt in areas with groups/herds of fallow
What I've found is akin to what VSS describes
With smaller groups, three to six or seven animals, there often appears to be a single "lead" doe - but that doesn't mean that she's always or even often in the lead, she might be in the middle of the group or at the rear of it
But
She very much seems to be in charge - but that's as likely to be me displaying some sort of confirmation bias to what I observe as it is to be the reality of the situation
Who apart form the deer would know exactly what they were at?
And how could I could I know if the same animal "took the lead" every time the group did anything anyway?
At times the "leader" was a scrawny wee thing or one that didn't look mature - there is no hard and fast rule, it seems like the deer pick their own leader according to their rules not ours
I've quite often seen groups of fallow halt at the edge of a wood as if deciding (again only my interpretation) whether or not to move out on to a field or into a ride
Then I've seen what looks to me like a mature, or at least older/larger doe seemingly push a youngster out ahead of the group - like she was "testing the water" - again I'm obviously making an interpretation which is very likely bs
However, I have managed on several occasions to shoot every animal in such a group by selecting this apparent "lead doe", carefully shooting her first - ideally with a head shot so she drops immediately
The others either stand looking at her, almost like they're awaiting her to do something, or they run off for a bit of a think - but again that could just be me placing an interepretation on things, second guessing them and I'm probably wrong
But I have seen them do that and/or run off only to cautiously come back to the spot a short time later, and I've been able to get extra shots, sometimes getting the whole group - but this only seems to work with the small groups of fallow
Herds like those in post 24 often contain several animals which either display "dominant" behaviours or appear to be acting as "lookouts/sentinels"
Again, that's at least as likely to be me or any of us displaying interpretation bias as it is to be the reality of the situation
Whatever, I much prefer my chances on getting more than a shot or a couple of shots if I'm dealing with a small group rather than a herd like one of those in the photos in post 24
I haven't seen enough deer for long enough to know if there is actually such a thing as a lead doe
But I have found that it is possible to take out a small group of deer with a bit of careful shooting and that large herds are much more difficult to deal with
My labelling a doe as the leader of a group is much more likely to be me applying my human bias & interpetation to what little I've seen than it is to be the reality of the situation
I was told/ordered to "shoot the lead doe first" more years ago than I care to recall, way before I even moved to GB
But the more I've shot and the more deer I've seen the more I think that it's a mostly mythical creature - other than in very limited circumstances.
What I've found is akin to what VSS describes
With smaller groups, three to six or seven animals, there often appears to be a single "lead" doe - but that doesn't mean that she's always or even often in the lead, she might be in the middle of the group or at the rear of it
But
She very much seems to be in charge - but that's as likely to be me displaying some sort of confirmation bias to what I observe as it is to be the reality of the situation
Who apart form the deer would know exactly what they were at?
And how could I could I know if the same animal "took the lead" every time the group did anything anyway?
At times the "leader" was a scrawny wee thing or one that didn't look mature - there is no hard and fast rule, it seems like the deer pick their own leader according to their rules not ours
I've quite often seen groups of fallow halt at the edge of a wood as if deciding (again only my interpretation) whether or not to move out on to a field or into a ride
Then I've seen what looks to me like a mature, or at least older/larger doe seemingly push a youngster out ahead of the group - like she was "testing the water" - again I'm obviously making an interpretation which is very likely bs
However, I have managed on several occasions to shoot every animal in such a group by selecting this apparent "lead doe", carefully shooting her first - ideally with a head shot so she drops immediately
The others either stand looking at her, almost like they're awaiting her to do something, or they run off for a bit of a think - but again that could just be me placing an interepretation on things, second guessing them and I'm probably wrong
But I have seen them do that and/or run off only to cautiously come back to the spot a short time later, and I've been able to get extra shots, sometimes getting the whole group - but this only seems to work with the small groups of fallow
Herds like those in post 24 often contain several animals which either display "dominant" behaviours or appear to be acting as "lookouts/sentinels"
Again, that's at least as likely to be me or any of us displaying interpretation bias as it is to be the reality of the situation
Whatever, I much prefer my chances on getting more than a shot or a couple of shots if I'm dealing with a small group rather than a herd like one of those in the photos in post 24
I haven't seen enough deer for long enough to know if there is actually such a thing as a lead doe
But I have found that it is possible to take out a small group of deer with a bit of careful shooting and that large herds are much more difficult to deal with
My labelling a doe as the leader of a group is much more likely to be me applying my human bias & interpetation to what little I've seen than it is to be the reality of the situation
I was told/ordered to "shoot the lead doe first" more years ago than I care to recall, way before I even moved to GB
But the more I've shot and the more deer I've seen the more I think that it's a mostly mythical creature - other than in very limited circumstances.
I'm not sure we're differing that much. I agree there are dominant animals in any group I just think the concept of "lead doe" has been elevated to almost mythical proportions by some. I just think there are too many variables at play to say it's always a single deer that always dictates the behaviour of the whole group. Especially in big groups of fallow of 100+. And I don't believe that shooting the lead doe in someway impacts deer welfare because she's the only one who knows where the good feeding is etc.
Small groups - my experience is sometimes they'll stand after the first one drops and sometimes they run, regardless of which one you shoot first. My experience is more with reds but I have shot decent numbers of fallow in years gone by and had similar experiences.
My view is that behaviour after the first shot is more influenced by a) do they know where the danger is coming from b) how the first animal reacts. If you're 1) well hidden, 2) they can't place where the sound came from and 3) the first deer drops on the spot I think you're most likely to get a follow-up. Twice in the last couple of weeks I've had multiple reds after shooting a spiker first out of a mixed group. The rest (including some big hinds) had no idea where I was or which way to run. On one occasion they trotted towards me and I had 2 follow up hinds at 20 yards. No idea if either was the lead hind as they all tasted the same.
There are for certain lead animals. The big old doe that busts you first lol
Our whitetails in Ontario move (yard up) when winter comes to better cover. There was a famous deer heard a few hours north of me in the heavy bush that got a few light snow winters in a row. And guess what happened when the next real winter showed up? The got buried and starved/froze to death. The whole heard. Over the course of 3-4 years of the light winters the mature animals had died or forgotten to yard and the younger ones didn’t know to leave.
Our whitetails in Ontario move (yard up) when winter comes to better cover. There was a famous deer heard a few hours north of me in the heavy bush that got a few light snow winters in a row. And guess what happened when the next real winter showed up? The got buried and starved/froze to death. The whole heard. Over the course of 3-4 years of the light winters the mature animals had died or forgotten to yard and the younger ones didn’t know to leave.
Funnily enough we get large herds twice that size and a few small groups. We find that shoot one out of a small group and the rest are off to a different county. The large herds are more cooperative, ping any one, they run off. Lay still and they come back to look at their stationary pal, sometimes enabling you to drop another. Got as many as four when they keep coming back. However usually the backdrop in this flat country can get you the first, but the others nearly always tend to have the knowledge to stand a little more skylined. Never bothered with "Lead" does just pick one that's safe.
Well that's the Fallow does finished yesterday, two out of a very large herd on the edge of our ground. Neither was the lead doe, just one old doe and a yearling. The strange thing was that the yearling was pregnant as well as the old girl. No looking for lead doe just picked the ones in the clear with a good backstop. Shot one but unfortunately they only came back once so only got one other chance. Now just a few prickets and poor bucks, need a couple of buck fawns for the freezer then it's a leisurely Summer, sitting out for Muntjac puffing the pipe and watching the other wild life going about it's business, my kind of relaxing Heaven.
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
Another consideration is that the lead doe is likely to be an older animal with a substantial number of her productive years behind her. If population reduction is the management plan then focus on female fawns and yearlings.
I beg to differ a little, shoot the bigger does not the fawns. My reasoning is this year (if winter shooting) or next year they'll be two and 50/50 the fawn they are carrying will be another doe.
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
My reasoning is that every female fawn or yearling you take out is also taking out perhaps eight future offspring
Sheamus
Well-Known Member
If that's your model of management then that's entirely up to you Tim. But with respect I don't agree.
Winter mature Hinds/Does are almost certainly going to drop one out the following May/June time.
One in it's first twelve months is not. These would be the ones id definitely over look in favour of one's in there second year and above.
Out of the number of Hinds that I have taken this year. Only one was Baron.
Haha - you’re not reloading quick enough on the small groups
not unusual to be able to clobber three out of smaller groups but on one momentous occasion I mopped up all seven from a group at the head of a small valley one morning. I know of one legend, now passed away thanks to the dreaded cancer, who took 17 out of a big group one morning 
- I never bettered that but did make double figures one morning, that was an experience I’ll never forget, a lot of clearing up to do!
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Am out this evening to try & knock two more over to get me over the line. Then it’s time for a breather until August - not into Roe bucks, or midges, ticks or any other summertime nasties! Rifle will be getting stripped next weekend, Alpex going off for repair, bedding job finished, stock cleaned up & a few coats of danish oil applied. Then time to focus on the new shooting bench & cover.
Come and have a go at ours, where the land is as flat as a witches tits. You've got these funny things called hills in Hampshire, they help a lot when going for numbers.Haha - you’re not reloading quick enough on the small groups
we fortunately don't have many ticks or midges . I've shot a lot of hinds out of groups when on reds in Jockistan.Similar threads
