Tell me again why public access stalking isn’t a viable option

[Happy stalker]

I agree with vss. If you want a professional job done then a professional(s) should be engaged and paid.

I totally agree with that, the demand for more recreational stalking should be taken up by the the forestry commission and more pressure put on them to do so, and leave the private landowners to get on with managing their own land, if any landowners feel that they need a hand then they should be able to decide who does it.
Recreational stalking and full time stalking are poles apart.

 

[Tim.243]

I thought this thread was about public access stalking and the potentially positive outcomes regarding wildlife management?
CH

I totally agree with that, the demand for more recreational stalking should be taken up by the the forestry commission and more pressure put on them to do so, and leave the private landowners to get on with managing their own land, if any landowners feel that they need a hand then they should be able to decide who does it.
Recreational stalking and full time stalking are poles apart.

Where this falls down a lot is the safe havens deer retreat to with owners not having them shot.
2/300 will sit and wait, yes a few get picked off with a night licence but they just run back.

Where are we with that? Nowhere with a chocolate tea pot on a hot plate lol

 

[Happy stalker]

Where this falls down a lot is the safe havens deer retreat to with owners not having them shot.
2/300 will sit and wait, yes a few get picked off with a night licence but they just run back.

Where are we with that? Nowhere with a chocolate tea pot on a hot plate lol

I am in Scotland so I don’t have any firsthand experience of the large heards of Fallow, south of the border.
Up here the deer management has unfortunately turned very political.

 

[VSS]

I am in Scotland so I don’t have any firsthand experience of the large heards of Fallow, south of the border.
Up here the deer management has unfortunately turned very political.

In the midlands and southern England there are individual herds of fallow numbering in excess of 1,500 animals.
Multiply that by numerous herds and you'll begin to get the idea.
As yet, it hasn't turned political, despite the very obvious damage to crops and ecosystems.

 

[Happy stalker]

In the midlands and southern England there are individual herds of fallow numbering in excess of 1,500 animals.
Multiply that by numerous herds and you'll begin to get the idea.
As yet, it hasn't turned political, despite the very obvious damage to crops and ecosystems.

Aye, I have heard of the very large numbers down south and I do hope that it gets sorted without it becoming political like it has up here.
It saddens me and others how deer management up here has become a political football, up here more full time employed stalkers are needed who live locally to address the issues and NOT syndicates living miles away which has contributed to the problem here, there are very good capable stalkers up here who can’t get any stalking because syndicates from further afield buying up leases,

 

[Happy stalker]

Aye, I have heard of the very large numbers down south and I do hope that it gets sorted without it becoming political like it has up here.
It saddens me and others how deer management up here has become a political football, up here more full time employed stalkers are needed who live locally to address the issues and NOT syndicates living miles away which has contributed to the problem here, there are very good capable stalkers up here who can’t get any stalking because syndicates from further afield buying up leases,

May I add I am lucky that I have plenty of my own and do offer to help folk.

 

[Tim.243]

I am in Scotland so I don’t have any firsthand experience of the large heards of Fallow, south of the border.
Up here the deer management has unfortunately turned very political.

Yes but you have midges and you can't manage them

 

[rem284]

I totally agree with that, the demand for more recreational stalking should be taken up by the the forestry commission and more pressure put on them to do so, and leave the private landowners to get on with managing their own land, if any landowners feel that they need a hand then they should be able to decide who does it.
Recreational stalking and full time stalking are poles apart.

I think they stopped taking clients out largely because it was more economically viable to have more deer shot by the ranger and therefore less damage to a crop rather than the revenue from clients. Some rangers would "keep" some deer to help clients get a better chance. You can't have your cake and eat it!!! I didn't mind taking most clients out and a few have become very good friends. I do understand what you say, it was a good opportunity for the public to get a chance of stalking

 

[rem284]

Yes but you have midges and you can't manage them

Yes, but you can use them to make a client suffer, who has p1ssed you off. Lol

 

[Happy stalker]

Yes but you have midges and you can't manage them

 

[Happy stalker]

Yes, but you can use them to make a client suffer, who has p1ssed you off. Lol

Yip been there and done that!

 

[Happy stalker]

I think they stopped taking clients out largely because it was more economically viable to have more deer shot by the ranger and therefore less damage to a crop rather than the revenue from clients. Some rangers would "keep" some deer to help clients get a better chance. You can't have your cake and eat it!!! I didn't mind taking most clients out and a few have become very good friends. I do understand what you say, it was a good opportunity for the public to get a chance of stalking

Ditto, I made some long standing friends who still come out with me some 40yrs later and a few I’d rather not see again

 

[slider]

I totally agree with that, the demand for more recreational stalking should be taken up by the the forestry commission and more pressure put on them to do so, and leave the private landowners to get on with managing their own land, if any landowners feel that they need a hand then they should be able to decide who does it.
Recreational stalking and full time stalking are poles apart.

The Forestry Commission, at least in Scotland (FLS) saw the light and got rid of recreational leases (bar a very few with very specific circumstances) a good few years ago.
Why should we burden the tax payer with increase tree damage in public forests by going backwards

 

[Happy stalker]

The Forestry Commission, at least in Scotland (FLS) saw the light and got rid of recreational leases (bar a very few with very specific circumstances) a good few years ago.
Why should we burden the tax payer with increase tree damage in public forests by going backwards

Aye I do agree, that just highlights the issue with syndication of ground and the issues it causes, to be brutally honest ALL deer management leases should be offered to local competent stalkers first at no charge wether that’s up here or down south and NO commercial stalking allowed in a commercial forest that is also an issue if the government where serious about proper deer management that is the way forward, Sporting estates need the income to survive and keep stalkers employed I know that by experience,

 

[slider]

Aye I do agree, that just highlights the issue with syndication of ground and the issues it causes, to be brutally honest ALL deer management leases should be offered to local competent stalkers first at no charge wether that’s up here or down south and NO commercial stalking allowed in a commercial forest that is also an issue if the government where serious about proper deer management that is the way forward, Sporting estates need the income to survive and keep stalkers employed I know that by experience,

I agree with most of that but there are plenty responsible syndicates in commercial forestry. I'm in two and am well aware of the requirement to meet cull targets. Consistent underperformance would result in getting kicked out.
If its brown it's down (in season). No faffing about leaving "good heads".

 

[Happy stalker]

I agree with most of that but there are plenty responsible syndicates in commercial forestry. I'm in two and am well aware of the requirement to meet cull targets. Consistent underperformance would result in getting kicked out.
If its brown it's down (in season). No faffing about leaving "good heads".

Aye there are some very good ones but equally there are ones that are not so good, and it’s those ones that need to step aside and give the others who can’t get one a chance but I do see a change in the right direction.

 

[jthyttin]

Reading the another thread, you (=UK) don't need more pro stalkers or hobby stalkers per se. The whole issue would solve itself by getting the carcass price to reasonable level. And when you're not getting it, the problem will live on and even get bigger.

I guess Scotland is below (UK) average on living costs, so processing would be feasible there. Suitable location to guarantee the supply, and deliver the packed end product refrigerated and/or frozen to south. Alternatively add more value by producing canned goods, jerky etc. onsite.

If you can get 6 Euro in Estonia, you sure as h*ll should be able to get £4 per kg in UK. Of course Estonia is tapped to EU market but anyway.

Maybe first part of solution would be to make multiyear deals with estates on the supply side. So it would be b-to-b contracts that should give more security for the buying side. Then get suitable assortment of buyers (restaurants, grocery shop chains, even smaller buyers for preserved goods) to commit.

Key concept would be that everybody in the supply chain would try to protect the whole chain by acting reasonably. Currently I guess everybody is trying to maximize their own profit and don't think throughput and larger operations. So stalker that is in the one end of chain gets screwed. And so does the customer in the other end, and the market won't grow.

 

[VSS]

Reading the another thread, you (=UK) don't need more pro stalkers or hobby stalkers per se. The whole issue would solve itself by getting the carcass price to reasonable level. And when you're not getting it, the problem will live on and even get bigger.

I guess Scotland is below (UK) average on living costs, so processing would be feasible there. Suitable location to guarantee the supply, and deliver the packed end product refrigerated and/or frozen to south. Alternatively add more value by producing canned goods, jerky etc. onsite.

If you can get 6 Euro in Estonia, you sure as h*ll should be able to get £4 per kg in UK. Of course Estonia is tapped to EU market but anyway.

Maybe first part of solution would be to make multiyear deals with estates on the supply side. So it would be b-to-b contracts that should give more security for the buying side. Then get suitable assortment of buyers (restaurants, grocery shop chains, even smaller buyers for preserved goods) to commit.

Key concept would be that everybody in the supply chain would try to protect the whole chain by acting reasonably. Currently I guess everybody is trying to maximize their own profit and don't think throughput and larger operations. So stalker that is in the one end of chain gets screwed. And so does the customer in the other end, and the market won't grow.

You're right.
But until stalkers up their game with regard to carcass presentation, there is no hope of an increase in prices.
Currently, the carcass price is pegged to the lowest common denominator, and the stalkers who do submit good carcasses are subsidising those who don't.
The price you suggest is about right, in my opinion. I can pay £4/kg for a good clean fallow carcass, and still make a reasonable margin on it. But it's got to be head shot.

 

[slider]

Reading the another thread, you (=UK) don't need more pro stalkers or hobby stalkers per se. The whole issue would solve itself by getting the carcass price to reasonable level. And when you're not getting it, the problem will live on and even get bigger.

I guess Scotland is below (UK) average on living costs, so processing would be feasible there. Suitable location to guarantee the supply, and deliver the packed end product refrigerated and/or frozen to south. Alternatively add more value by producing canned goods, jerky etc. onsite.

If you can get 6 Euro in Estonia, you sure as h*ll should be able to get £4 per kg in UK. Of course Estonia is tapped to EU market but anyway.

Maybe first part of solution would be to make multiyear deals with estates on the supply side. So it would be b-to-b contracts that should give more security for the buying side. Then get suitable assortment of buyers (restaurants, grocery shop chains, even smaller buyers for preserved goods) to commit.

Key concept would be that everybody in the supply chain would try to protect the whole chain by acting reasonably. Currently I guess everybody is trying to maximize their own profit and don't think throughput and larger operations. So stalker that is in the one end of chain gets screwed. And so does the customer in the other end, and the market won't grow.

Some of us do as you suggest and process and sell what we shoot, I probably average £10kg for frozen and vacuum packed venison, with anything i can't sell as dice, mince or steak going into burgers for a local hotel.
However there is work and cost involved in that and not everyone has the time or facilities.
There is also a limit to the number of niche market outlets available.
Unfortunately the bulk of the supply chain is controlled by a very small number of dealers/processors and they have almost total control over the price they offer.

 

[63]

You're right.
But until stalkers up their game with regard to carcass presentation, there is no hope of an increase in prices.
Currently, the carcass price is pegged to the lowest common denominator, and the stalkers who do submit good carcasses are subsidising those who don't.
The price you suggest is about right, in my opinion. I can pay £4/kg for a good clean fallow carcass, and still make a reasonable margin on it. But it's got to be head shot.

Were you the chap in the hat who made this point (almost word for word ) at the stalking show panel discussion last Sunday? If so I was sat just to your left.

I broadly agree with you, it feels to me a bit like the sport of stalking is in a state of flux. There seems to be a traditional expectation (that was maybe reasonable in the past) that an amateur stalker can expect to stalk at their own pace, not pay (or pay very little) for the privilege, and offload excess carcasses to the game dealer at a sufficiently good price to cover a large part of the costs.

In today's world that seems unrealistic. If you're stalking for fun you're probably going to have to pay for it, either in cash or graft/time (e.g. serious doe culling to earn the right to stalk summer roebucks.)

If you want to make money selling venison you probably need to treat it as, at a minimum, a part time business and be professional about it. You probably also need to accept the reality that acting solely as a 'resource extractor' is, as in many industries, less profitable than vertically integrating and providing a product to the final consumer. Value gets added along the processing chain and, rightly or wrongly, the bulk of this isn't at the stalkers end, and that's unlikely to change. (see 'farming and supermarkets' for further details of this intractable conundrum!)

If you're a landowner who wants serious culling done, you're probably going to need to enter into a transactional relationship with someone who is making money off getting the job done. This could be straight up contracting, guiding (alongside meeting cull targets), or venison production. If you're a stalker who is being asked to do serious culling, you're almost certainly going to want something in return for the time and investment in specialist kit required. (Argos, larders etc etc)

Obviously there's scope to combine some of these strands together under certain circumstances, but that feels increasingly like good fortune rather than a reasonable expectation.