Had enough of bureaucracy

[User00056]

I'm not sure I can agree completely with you on this point. Whilst many stalkers do measure up to the standards expected and maintained by many, you only have to look at some of the photographs and questions posed on social media to realise that not all DSC1 stalkers out there are "competent" on the inspection and gralloching aspects and given that there are substantially fewer DSC2 qualified stalkers out there (some of whom I'd similar question as competent) that's even less of a "trained" field.

Yes, I agree. It was bad form of me to generalise. I think that were this restriction to be lifted, it would (and should!) place a focus more on the competency and qualifications of the stalkers supplying the carcass. And of course, ultimate responsibility still lies with the vendor processing the meat.

As to why Scotland should be different? If you can find any sense or logic in Scottish politics you'll be a far cleverer man than I am!

 

[VSS]

This is the case here for small scale producer ie sub 300 deer carcasses (of any species) per annum, we’re permitted to gather from county of business registration plus any adjoining county/ies, and sell to same, but no farther.

Where does the 300 limit come from? I've often heard it quoted, but can't find anything written down that officially sets a figure.
Is it a Scottish specific thing? Something to do with the VDL?

 

[User00056]

Where does the 300 limit come from? I've often heard it quoted, but can't find anything written down that officially sets a figure.
Is it a Scottish specific thing? Something to do with the VDL?

I've never been able to find that out. All I can find is a vague definition that states it to be 'self-limiting', whatever that means

 

[Freeforester]

Just to be clear, the risk of contaminated products rises from greater throughput; both cases of food poisoning connected to venison in Scotland came from AGHE’s, and the risk of wider distribution that these establishments ‘enjoy’. Given that every carcase is meant to be approved, and handling and processing of same meant to be to industry standards, there’s a danger of it seeming to be poorly focused or rather focused on the wrong end of the industry as it stands. The monitoring Vet/s, consignees, the business concerned making eg the more high risk, highly processed meatballs, etc, all seem to have dropped the ball. The implications where products are more widely distributed are clear for anyone to consider.

Q: If you can obtain a contaminated SQWV carcase, what is the worth of the certification? And is it any better than a carefully lardered deer without the paper appendage?

 

[User00056]

Q: If you can obtain a contaminated SQWV carcase, what is the worth of the certification? And is it any better than a carefully lardered deer without the paper appendage?

I know exactly what I'd prefer

 

[VSS]

I've never been able to find that out. All I can find is a vague definition that states it to be 'self-limiting', whatever that means

That's what I thought.
The 300 limit is a bit of an urban myth, I think. Been repeated so many times and by so many sources that stalkers have come to believe it.
But I do concede that there may well be a limit in the Scottish regs that I'm unaware of.

 

[sauer]

Venison dealers licence means nothing if removed still stuck in same position just a bit of paper

Can't butcher for others in my case
Or
Buy carcass for quixote/Stuart

Folk reckon it's just Angus council EHO but give lass her due she shoved it upto Food Standards Scotland with explanation of what I was trying to do and nope back to that Had to have had a hand in killing it / be there ruling

The next step up AGHE is with vet Inspections and tens of thousands of investme and a full time unit
Not viable for me not a chance

It's either hunters exemption own carcasses or been at the killing

Or
A full AGHE

Paul

 

[VSS]

Venison dealers licence means nothing if removed still stuck in same position just a bit of paper

Can't butcher for others in my case
Or
Buy carcass for quixote/Stuart

Folk reckon it's just Angus council EHO but give lass her due she shoved it upto Food Standards Scotland with explanation of what I was trying to do and nope back to that Had to have had a hand in killing it / be there ruling

The next step up AGHE is with vet Inspections and tens of thousands of investme and a full time unit
Not viable for me not a chance

It's either hunters exemption own carcasses or been at the killing

Or
A full AGHE

Paul

You could have more than just yourself named on the food business registration, the others being the people who shoot deer for you (in Stuart's case).

 

[Freeforester]

That's what I thought.
The 300 limit is a bit of an urban myth, I think. Been repeated so many times and by so many sources that stalkers have come to believe it.
But I do concede that there may well be a limit in the Scottish regs that I'm unaware of.

I’ll dig it out, it is indeed published (- somewhere!) along with the 10,000 small game limit for ‘small scale producers - rest assured it is real.

 

[VSS]

I’ll dig it out, it is indeed published (- somewhere!) along with the 10,000 small game limit for ‘small scale producers - rest assured it is real.

Here's the definition of "small quantities" as per the FSA guide:

 

[wytonpjs]

My relationship with my EHO is based on risk. As long as I stay below a fairly low threshold, he is perfectly happy with my current arrangements. Above that, he requires enhanced facilities which I completely agree with, but given the poor current market I am perfectly happy to stay below that threshold as there simply isn't the profitability in it. I do not understand why a similar approach isn't being taken North of the border given that the risks are essentially the same. Back to your original point: why, just why, do we have different rules for England (and Wales) and Scotland? It makes no sense!

Having finished work I've finally had chance to look at Scotland's equivalent to the UK/Wales FSA Wild Game Guidance, here. Outwardly, they are very similar documents with all the recognisable bits just in a different form until you come to the section highlighted by @Quixote in his post #28 which is Scotland's unique crunch point. Back to my point above:

"Why, just why, do we have different rules for England (and Wales) and Scotland? It makes no sense!" ​

 

[sauer]

You could have more than just yourself named on the food business registration, the others being the people who shoot deer for you (in Stuart's case).

???????
I don't have anyone else shooting deer for me .... registered on food business or not if I'm not there when beast shot and gralloched I can't process or sell it ....
I'm not getting you on this one

Don't think Stuart has other people on his food registration either ? @ quixote?

Paul

 

[User00056]

Don't think Stuart has other people on his food registration either ? @ quixote?

No, I don't. I think I see where @VSS is aiming though. Namely that if you had four or five people with FACs all registered then in theory they could supply carcasses?

I don't think that would work though

 

[VSS]

No, I don't. I think I see where @VSS is aiming though. Namely that if you had four or five people with FACs all registered then in theory they could supply carcasses?

I don't think that would work though

Yes, that's exactly what I meant.
For example, when I first registered and the EHO came out to see me, she asked who would be shooting the deer, so I told her it would be either myself or my daughter, so she wrote that down, having first confirmed that we did both have a trained hunter number.
I could just as easily have said myself, my mate Bill and his son Pete. She'd have taken down the details and that would have been that. Sorted. All part of the same food business, so all eligible to supply carcasses through it.
It's only registration with LA after all. Not like you're all actually part of the same business registered with HMRC

 

[User00056]

I could just as easily have said myself, my mate Bill and his son Pete. She'd have taken down the details and that would have been that. Sorted.

I think that additional clause in our guidance would stuff us on that score

 

[VSS]

I think that additional clause in our guidance would stuff us on that score

No, I don't think so, because in the eyes of the LA you'd all be part of the same Food Business and therefore all eligible to supply carcasses through it.

 

[User00056]

No, I don't think so, because in the eyes of the LA you'd all be part of the same Food Business and therefore all eligible to supply carcasses through it.

I'm fairly sure if I suggest that the Scottish government would immediately convene and outlaw commonsense. They have previous for that, after all

 

[VSS]

I'm fairly sure if I suggest that the Scottish government would immediately convene and outlawe commonsense. They have previous for that, after all

You could try simply calling the appropriate department in you LA and saying "I'd like to add a couple more names to my food business registration, please". No need to tell them exactly why. If they ask, just make a vague response such as "they're helping me".

 

[sauer]

Think your pushing the interpretation of the clause in our version ..... I wouldn't want to try that without clarification

 

[Ratcatcher]

Bit of a rant I'm afraid.

Last year the majority of my stalking was in the three weeks or so prior to local markets. It reached the point where it became a necessary chore and I felt under so much pressure that the enjoyment was lost. I was out for myself last weekend though, and it brought home to me just why I put my butchery together. I have a buck in the chiller, it's purely for us, and I'm actually looking forward to dealing with it!

I don't make a lot of money from markets to be honest, even though I mostly end up sold-out. My intention was to put local wild venison on people's radar, but despite so many making encouraging noises my efforts were largely met with apathy, indifference, and the inevitable and infuriating HG/imported venison/ supermarket argument. Another massive issue is just how hamstrung the rules and regulations have made me. For example, despite holding all the correct certification, including the Scottish requirement for a Venison Dealers License, I'm not allowed to buy in carcasses from qualified stalkers and process them for sale without being forced down the AGHE route. Nor can I offer local smallholders a butchery service for one or two sheep, or a pig. My most recent inspector told me I can no longer offer pulled pork or pork sausage either, as this would mean I was no longer mainly trading in venison. This is despite the Council being aware of exactly what I produce for the last three years.

I reckon I may just about have broken even with what I've spent, with possibly a slight slant to being in the black. HMRC will remain untroubled by my endeavours though, as I suspect if I worked out what my hourly rate has been it would break my heart.

Three years of busting my ass that has seen me just about break even is enough punishment, and I'm going to call it a day at that. I've committed to the Highland Games at Glamis Castle this year, and I'm going to make that my swan song.

I know I'm not the only small producer in the area who's been broken by this bureaucracy, and it's just another example of how free enterprise and initiative is stifled in the UK today. I'm pretty p*ssed off, I have to say.

Why don't you just call it "halal" you'll have total support and not a word of negativity from the powers that be!