FAC grant (Scotland) issues

[Subsistence]

Hello everyone, just looking to get other peoples experiences, and possibly some advice on what to do next.

I applied for my first FAC grant earlier in the year, and after some delays due to me moving house I finally had my home visit yesterday.

Unfortunately I was told that they would not issue me an FAC currently as I do not have any permissions. However I do have paid stalks booked In for the future, and have done some in the past, i also have my DSC1 not that its necessary but was hoping it would help show my commitment to deer stalking.

It clearly states in the notes on the appli ation form that paid stalks are a valid reason, however they are saying they do not generally issue for paid stalks.

They say that is me wanting, and not in and of itself a good reason. Having permissions/syndicate place would be good reason. It is hard to get such things without an FAC already in place. Bit of a chicken and egg situation. My hope was to get the FAC and then try and get said permissions/syndicate place.

So my questions

Has anyone recently been granted an FAC in scotland for paid stalks?

Does anyone know of a syndicate in scotland that would take me on without first having an FAC? Though I'm hopeful once I could show them I had a place my FAC should follow quite quickly.

 

[Bowland blades]

Hello everyone, just looking to get other peoples experiences, and possibly some advice on what to do next.

I applied for my first FAC grant earlier in the year, and after some delays due to me moving house I finally had my home visit yesterday.

Unfortunately I was told that they would not issue me an FAC currently as I do not have any permissions. However I do have paid stalks booked In for the future, and have done some in the past, i also have my DSC1 not that its necessary but was hoping it would help show my commitment to deer stalking.

It clearly states in the notes on the appli ation form that paid stalks are a valid reason, however they are saying they do not generally issue for paid stalks.

They say that is me wanting, and not in and of itself a good reason. Having permissions/syndicate place would be good reason. It is hard to get such things without an FAC already in place. Bit of a chicken and egg situation. My hope was to get the FAC and then try and get said permissions/syndicate place.

So my questions

Has anyone recently been granted an FAC in scotland for paid stalks?

Does anyone know of a syndicate in scotland that would take me on without first having an FAC? Though I'm hopeful once I could show them I had a place my FAC should follow quite quickly.

That is incorrect info . I guess at least 70-80% plus have no personally owned land with deer enough to bother with . In Scotland you still have a regular copper not an FEO still ? You likely got a numpty or one with an agenda i suspect .
if you joined a syndicate its no different than booked days ( you just pay for them all at once ! ) . Have you made use of paid stalks with a landowner or his stalker previously using the " estate rifle rule ( where you get to shoot without a FAC ?).

 

[VSS]

Bookings for future paid stalks is sufficient "good reason".

 

[Subsistence]

That is incorrect info . I guess at least 70-80% plus have no personally owned land with deer enough to bother with . In Scotland you still have a regular copper not an FEO still ? You likely got a numpty or one with an agenda i suspect .
if you joined a syndicate its no different than booked days ( you just pay for them all at once ! ) . Have you made use of paid stalks with a landowner or his stalker previously using the " estate rifle rule ( where you get to shoot without a FAC ?).

Yes I have used the estate rifle rule before for paid stalks.

She is an FEO but also a regular copper I think. She was accompanied by someone else who seemed to be the one leading the you can't have it for paid stalks line.

Both of them totally new to me, can't help think it would have been much more stright forward if it had been the guy I had delt with I the past for my AWL and SGC. He seemed to understand my trajectory and was a very easy to deal with.

 

[HonestJohn]

Are they asking for a landowner permission form or even a syndicate manager permission

Either way, they’re completely wrong and making up the rules as they go along

 

[Blaser243]

Have you received that in writing from them? Have they said that they are refusing your certificate? If so you have only a short window to appeal.

Or, are they giving you chance to provide further “evidence”? If so, what have you supplied to date? Have you provided them with confirmation of future bookings? If not, I can understand their reluctance if it based on a mere suggestion you might book future.

If they do say that booked stalls do not constitute good reason, one line of attack being to submit a FOI request of how many applications had been approved on the same basis in the last 5 years. If the answer comes back as zero, I’m sure someone on here will contradict it or you could then make the same request with another police for comparison. Whilst they are not obliged to follow the same proceedure as other forces, the law is the same and this has been good reason for a grant forever.

Member of BASC or similar?

 

[Subsistence]

Are they asking for a landowner permission form or even a syndicate manager permission

Either way, they’re completely wrong and making up the rules as they go along

They where not spacific either way just that I needed to have land to shoot over

 

[Subsistence]

Have you received that in writing from them? Have they said that they are refusing your certificate? If so you have only a short window to appeal.

Or, are they giving you chance to provide further “evidence”? If so, what have you supplied to date? Have you provided them with confirmation of future bookings? If not, I can understand their reluctance if it based on a mere suggestion you might book future.

If they do say that booked stalls do not constitute good reason, one line of attack being to submit a FOI request of how many applications had been approved on the same basis in the last 5 years. If the answer comes back as zero, I’m sure someone on here will contradict it or you could then make the same request with another police for comparison. Whilst they are not obliged to follow the same proceedure as other forces, the law is the same and this has been good reason for a grant forever.

Member of BASC or similar?

Nothing formal, application is paused for a few weeks to see if I can jump through their hoops, the suggestion was if I couldn't get land to stalk over I should withdraw the application.

Yes I provided evidence of an upcoming paid stalk later in the year.

Yes I'm a member of BASC, will be contacting them later today or tomorrow

 

[Blaser243]

Good. You shouldn't withdraw your application - some forces are clearly pushing people in that direction though to reduce the number of grants.

Just back it up with an email or letter from whoever you stalk with. If that means you have to commit to a date now and put down a deposit, presumably that is worth it to you? Any decent guide will appreciate that dates may have to change - that doesn't mean that the booking is disingenuous.

Just be honest and see it through - you will get there.

 

[Dalua]

Bookings for future paid stalks is sufficient "good reason".

I'd have thought even the intention to book future paid stalks should be 'good reason' - though I guess evidence that some stalking has been booked might be more-persuasive in the case of a new applicant...

 

[Mick9abf]

I’m sure plenty will disagree with me but I can actually see where the Police are coming from.

They are asking if you really have ‘good reason’ to obtain a firearm just now or whether you just want one as you’re getting into stalking and it’s all part of the stuff you think you ‘need’ at this stage.

If the estate rifle clause is in place and sufficient and you don’t have ground but have some future stalks booked (which can also be cancelled) it’s a tough one to argue against.

I get that it can feel like chicken and egg however I’m pretty sure the FLO’s have to deal with several renewals every month from people who have been granted FAC under similar circumstances who didn’t really need a FAC and have purchased one box of ammunition which is still half full after 5 years as they’ve done three paid stalks (if that) and are often the same people moaning how expensive it is to do paid stalks and/or how expensive syndicates are etc but have a nice shiny £3k rifle and optics package in the cabinet.

 

[Subsistence]

I’m sure plenty will disagree with me but I can actually see where the Police are coming from.

They are asking if you really have ‘good reason’ to obtain a firearm just now or whether you just want one as you’re getting into stalking and it’s all part of the stuff you think you ‘need’ at this stage.

If the estate rifle clause is in place and sufficient and you don’t have ground but have some future stalks booked (which can also be cancelled) it’s a tough one to argue against.

I get that it can feel like chicken and egg however I’m pretty sure the FLO’s have to deal with several renewals every month from people who have been granted FAC under similar circumstances who didn’t really need a FAC and have purchased one box of ammunition which is still half full after 5 years as they’ve done three paid stalks and are often the same people moaning how expensive it is to do paid stalks and/or how expensive syndicates are etc but have a nice shiny £3k rifle and optics package in the cabinet.

Yes this certainly seems to be what they where tiptoeing around.

However I feel like I meet all the criteria that is required especially as paid stalk are listed as good reason on the application form notes.

I fully intend to get permissions/syndicate place once I had my FAC. As my goal is to be self sufficient in game.

 

[Mick9abf]

I fully intend to get permissions/syndicate place once I had my FAC. As my goal is to be self sufficient in game.

I don’t know where you live but the most likely way of you getting ground in the circumstances is probably through a private land owner as most leases that syndicates, particularly commercial forestry, are on will require a valid FAC before you can be added unless it’s being run without the full knowledge of said company which I’m sure happens with some jiggery pokery with the amount of people you see on small bits of ground.

 

[Subsistence]

I don’t know where you live but the most likely way of you getting ground in the circumstances is probably through a private land owner as most leases that syndicates, particularly commercial forestry, are on will require a valid FAC before you can be added unless it’s being run without the full knowledge of said company which I’m sure happens with some jiggery pokery with the amount of people you see on small bits of ground.

Agree, however approaching land owners, if difficult at the best of times as they are, understandably, reluctant/cautions to let strangers use firarms on thir land.

Add to this that if I find one with a deer problem that they want sorting, they ask, when can you start? I answer with, I don't know as I don't yet have an FAC. I'm sure they would then be inclined to say no, I'll find someone who does have the necessary tools to complete the job.

 

[Blaser243]

Let's be clear - how many posts appear on here bemoaning how hard it is to find farmers who will let you shoot on their land. Its probably the number 1 issue for most people entering the sport.

As such, it shouldn't be any surprise that the vast majority of people wishing to get an FAC will have to pay for stalking by the day. Yes, they could in many instances use an estate rifle, but that does not mean that there isn't good reason to have their own. Good reason in that scenario could be as simple as "I could be left alone in a high seat by the guide" or "I'm left handed and the guy I pay to take me out only has right handed rifles". This isn't an area for the police to meddle in.

 

[User00056]

I would also ask them to confirm their request in writing, including the relevant section of the Home Office guidance that specifies it. These spurious and subjective demands need to be challenged. The existing guidance is more than adequate

 

[Subsistence]

I would also ask them to confirm their request in writing, including the relevant section of the Home Office guidance that specifies it. These spurious and subjective demands need to be challenged. The existing guidance is more than adequate

Thanks I will be doing this. I have just spoken to BASC and yhey are going to get someone from scotland to get back to me, they did however say this sounds like BS and you probably need to go over there head to someone more senior.

 

[User00056]

Thanks I will be doing this. I have just spoken to BASC and yhey are going to get someone from scotland to get back to me, they did however say this sounds like BS and you probably need to go over there head to someone more senior.

Insp Crawford is as senior as it gets within Firearms Licensing

Best of luck! Hopefully this'll be sorted out quickly for you

 

[Bo Diddley]

This is the type of situation that orgs like the BASC should be all over like a rash. I hope that when you contact them, they will help to set this situation straight.

Keep us updated, please.

Atb
BD.

 

[andyk]

If that’s all there is to it, they’re wrong and I’d imagine you’d succeed on an appeal. You’d want it in writing though.

The HO guidance permits booked stalks as a good reason, as does years of ‘custom and practice’. The guidance, and case law, further adds that ‘good reason’ is to be assessed from the perspective of an applicant and not a ‘potential objector’ and that, while it is more than want, it is not to be equated to need.

The fact you could use an estate rifle doesn’t mean you wouldn’t use your own. Familiarity with your own equipment as you take more challenging shots, the ability to be unaccompanied as required and so on would also show the benefit of it being your own rifle and not someone else’s.

That’s not to say they can’t interrogate good reason and test to check you haven’t just booked a single stalk to get a ‘proper bullet gun’ but that doesn’t sound to be so in your case.