Lead ammunition restrictions - government announcement

[hendrix's rifle]

Everyone, just go and buy a box of steel cartridges, try them out, see if they work OK, and of they do (as they do), move onto bigger threats to fieldsports. This is just switching from VHS to DVD.

I tried, found a lot of birds to continue flying on their way to fall out the sky across the horizon. After a couple of hundred cartridges, I then found numerous plastic wads which weren't very sightly.

The amount of birds continuing on their way after a shot was un real. This way maybe 5 years ago, before all this came to light. I just fancied seeing if they'd work... and they don't very well...

 

[Dunwaters]

No ,not at all i don’t answer irrelevant questions asked with the sole purpose of deflecting away from my points which incidentally you fail to acknowledge as it fails to reinforce your blinkered opinion.

So the future of shooting, post lead restrictions is irrelevant?
Why are you here?
I have acknowledged your points, I have indicated reasons for the change in policy and you have utterly failed to take the information on board.
Thats not my problem.

Keep drinking the BASC kool -aid,organisations need followers like yourself the compliant non questioning trusting type. Fingers crossed that the next obstacle doesn’t see a similar performance or you’ll be in the market for a catapult before you know it.

I’ve told you before, I’m not, nor have I ever been, a member of BASC.
I’m not in the least bit compliant, non questioning or trusting. I’m a sceptical old fart who’s weighed all the evidence and concluded that lead is dead.
I came to this conclusion some time ago, about the same time that the onus of proof changed. You seem to have missed that.
I’m also not inflexible, resistant to change or intransigent, I will definitely change my mind if new information indicates that it might be appropriate to do so.
I’m not hidebound or stuck in the past, I’m open to facts, even new ones.
Its called being an adult. You might want to consider it yourself.
I’m not in the market for a catapult just yet, I see no reason other than nostalgia to go back there, I do have a back yard bow and a lovely catty ash fork in hand. I also have the rubber bands and a bit of flexible leather, so theres one in my grandkids future, theres also the bow and an air gun.

Don't waste your time worrying about me, you're the one who can’t see a future for shooting, shooting representation and has no answers.

Eight time of asking.

Where do you see shooting sports going in the future?

A 5 year window will do.

You should be noticing by now that I don't play your game, I don’t buy your line of inaccurate bullshite and I won’t let you off not answering a relevant question.

 

[Rewulf]

GWCT published its scientific advice on lead ammunition in February 2020. BASC helped the GWCT with a £300k donation in 2021. You knew this of course because its in the public domain

So, BASC 'helped' the GWCT with a £300,000 gift of members money, (without consultation) after they published a damning report on lead shot, which just so happened to prompt BASCs call to phase out lead shot (without consultation) Using said report as the justification for it?
Then told everyone who was concerned about it, that it wasnt a ban, it was voluntary, and would only affect live quarry shotgun shooting.

Then bailed out the Game meat alliance with another £250,000 bung (without consultation) despite it being supposedly a non profit org.

Its a sorry story, and while there are those that say a lead ban was coming anyway, I cant help but feel, over the last 5 years, we have been sold down the river by BASC and the other shooting orgs.
Which wouldnt be so terrible if it wasnt for the fact that weve paid them for the privilege of getting shafted by them !

 

[timbrayford]

But if you ask for it often enough then you are creating demand, and it will become available. Manufacturers want to produce what people want to buy.
Our only fault lies in not asking when we should have.

To be honest, I'm completely ambivalent about the whole thing. Provided I can find something to send down my barrel I'll keep on shooting.
But I do think that by burying our heads in the sand we've deprived ourselves of what could have been a very interesting few decades of experimentation with a lot of different (and potentially exciting) new products.
Instead, we're going to get something forced upon us in a hurry, with very little input from ourselves in the development of it. I think we've been a bit silly, really.

Again in my experience suitable alternatives have not proved to be readily available for shotgun shooting.

I had a similar issue withe rifle ammunition but have been loading my own for I'd guess something over 10 years now which resolved that side of things.
In my c/f rifles I now only use Barnes copper bullets, in my experience they group excellently on paper targets and work just fine on foxes and deer, however I wouldn't claim that what works for me is so for everyone else.

I have no enthusiasm for steel shot for a whole plethora of reasons and going forward would much prefer to use something else, probably Bismuth if no alternative is available for driven game days, its hideously expensive anyway and I don't do much of it. Clay shooting which I do purely for social reasons might become a casualty if the Hortonium or something similar doesn't materialise and it could be fun to reload for this if need be.

Overall, the whole issue is being rushed and the cartridge suppliers have got a significant challenge ahead if they are to supply us all with ballistically superior , environmentally friendly shotgun ammunition when the lead ban comes in

 

[Liveonce]

careful @Rewulf you will join me on conor’s ignore list.

 

[Rewulf]

careful @Rewulf you will join me on conor’s ignore list.

I would be disappointed if I wasnt already

 

[Ruger#1]

So the future of shooting, post lead restrictions is irrelevant?
Why are you here?
I have acknowledged your points, I have indicated reasons for the change in policy and you have utterly failed to take the information on board.
Thats not my problem.

I’ve told you before, I’m not, nor have I ever been, a member of BASC.
I’m not in the least bit compliant, non questioning or trusting. I’m a sceptical old fart who’s weighed all the evidence and concluded that lead is dead.
I came to this conclusion some time ago, about the same time that the onus of proof changed. You seem to have missed that.
I’m also not inflexible, resistant to change or intransigent, I will definitely change my mind if new information indicates that it might be appropriate to do so.
I’m not hidebound or stuck in the past, I’m open to facts, even new ones.
Its called being an adult. You might want to consider it yourself.
I’m not in the market for a catapult just yet, I see no reason other than nostalgia to go back there, I do have a back yard bow and a lovely catty ash fork in hand. I also have the rubber bands and a bit of flexible leather, so theres one in my grandkids future, theres also the bow and an air gun.

Don't waste your time worrying about me, you're the one who can’t see a future for shooting, shooting representation and has no answers.

Eight time of asking.

Where do you see shooting sports going in the future?

A 5 year window will do.

You should be noticing by now that I don't play your game, I don’t buy your line of inaccurate bullshite and I won’t let you off not answering a relevant question.

I’m way beyond taking self definition seriously , as to the points in your post none of them address the points I have made so it begs the question why did you choose to reply to my initial post.
Your apparent need for conflict might explain it or your desire to appear to be the adult in any interaction ,whatever it is it seems to be more character based than any desire to debate the performance of BASC and the hypocrisy of one of its employees which yet again you choose to ignore and which was the basis of my initial post.
As you seem unwilling to comment on the points I have raised I can only conclude that you have limited opinion on the matter.
Why not start a thread titled “Where do you see shooting sports going in the future “ I might be tempted to contribute but at the moment on this thread “Lead ammunition restrictions -government announcement I’ll choose to keep on topic.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

So, BASC 'helped' the GWCT with a £300,000 gift of members money, (without consultation) after they published a damning report on lead shot, which just so happened to prompt BASCs call to phase out lead shot (without consultation) Using said report as the justification for it?
Then told everyone who was concerned about it, that it wasnt a ban, it was voluntary, and would only affect live quarry shotgun shooting.

Then bailed out the Game meat alliance with another £250,000 bung (without consultation) despite it being supposedly a non profit org.

Its a sorry story, and while there are those that say a lead ban was coming anyway, I cant help but feel, over the last 5 years, we have been sold down the river by BASC and the other shooting orgs.
Which wouldnt be so terrible if it wasnt for the fact that weve paid them for the privilege of getting shafted by them !

Which organisation have you paid in the last 5 years?

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Are you going to fight for the 6mm to be exempt from restrictions? Or likewise for anything going in to the commercial food chain and allow us to decide if we wish to eat this awful lead contaminated meat?

BASC will be fighting for an exemption for .243 from the live quarry shooting ban on rifle ammunition and for the lead shot ban to have a 5 year rather than 3 year transition period.

BASC response to government announcement on lead ammunition ban

Read BASC's statement in response to the Government's announcement regarding a ban on the sale and use of lead ammunition.

basc.org.uk

 

[Heym SR20]

I must admit not tried factory steel so not sure the speed compared to lead shot.

But i can mind being compmetely outshot by a mate picking up on a morning flight ( keeper used to lets us shoot some morning flights) i put my gun down as birds were now out of my range and plenty picking up to do.
He was further away and still knocking 2 or 3 out each group with steel and his semi.
He is a better shot than me and using his home loaded steel.

But same guy on the keepers days reverted back to lead and really struggled to hit anything the 1st 2 days.
By 3rd day he had his eye in again for the slower moving lead loads.

End of day steel is coming and has been the case for years.
Im i not right in saying americain steel cartridges are faster the uk 1s?
Possibly uk and our orgs should spend some time getting the speeds raised so that steel is more effective

Standard steel is totally effective. High speed is unnecessary other for the foreshore or ultra high birds.

But it often shoots a little higher than lead cartridges on the pattern plate and starts with a high velocity, which will make a difference in timing and lead etc.

It does require a bit of getting used to, in exactly the same way as a change in brand of cartridges or a change in gun.

However if you have good basic techniques that clever bit between your ears will reprogramme itself and you start hitting well.

I have certainly this with my guns, hence now pretty much sticking to steel. I just shoot better with it.

And provided you put a bird in the centre of a pattern they are killed very effectively.

You keep reading reports of “I tried steel and its crap” and they have a handful of cartridges and base their decisions on that.

I had a reverse situation. I was shooting my side by side on clays and couldn’t hit a bloody thing with the little white Eley lead cartridges. I normally shoot very well with it. Switched to Grandprix Eco Steel which had been using all season. Clays turned to dust.

However I have used both 4 and 5 steel and I do think the smaller shot gives a better more killing pattern. There is a school of thought that a greater density of smaller pellets knocks a bird much better than a few big ones. I am not convinced shotguns kill by penetration, rather by giving them a good smack in the same was when they hit a car or a tree in mid flight.

 

[VSS]

Again in my experience suitable alternatives have not proved to be readily available for shotgun shooting.

I had a similar issue withe rifle ammunition but have been loading my own for I'd guess something over 10 years now which resolved that side of things.
In my c/f rifles I now only use Barnes copper bullets, in my experience they group excellently on paper targets and work just fine on foxes and deer, however I wouldn't claim that what works for me is so for everyone else.

I have no enthusiasm for steel shot for a whole plethora of reasons and going forward would much prefer to use something else, probably Bismuth if no alternative is available for driven game days, its hideously expensive anyway and I don't do much of it. Clay shooting which I do purely for social reasons might become a casualty if the Hortonium or something similar doesn't materialise and it could be fun to reload for this if need be.

Overall, the whole issue is being rushed and the cartridge suppliers have got a significant challenge ahead if they are to supply us all with ballistically superior , environmentally friendly shotgun ammunition when the lead ban comes in

I agree with you. The whole issue is being rushed.
But I belive that the rush is a needless result of past inactivity on the part of both shooters and the wider industry.

 

[Chris Richardson]

I agree with you. The whole issue is being rushed.
But I belive that the rush is a needless result of past inactivity on the part of both shooters and the wider industry.

The point being if it isn’t broke don’t fix it , I’m pretty certain you’ve eaten your share of lead shot game Tim ?

 

[Ratcatcher]

I look forward to the next ten years' wildfowl death statistics being revealed. I'll bet my pension the numbers will be no different. I don't believe the 'science', and I don't accept that lead shot is responsible.

Ah but of course they weren't accurate figures, they were just made up, I kid you not, what happened was a duck was forced to invest a massive amount of lead shot in a lab then that multiplied the amount of shots fired in the wild , therefore obviously 10,000 ducks a year died, complete b******x

 

[Rewulf]

Which organisation have you paid in the last 5 years?

The Conor O Gorman Appreciation Society, COGAS for short, working hard to save those poor wee chicks

 

[Leec6.5]

careful @Rewulf you will join me on conor’s ignore list.

Reckon I am

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

Ah but of course they weren't accurate figures, they were just made up, I kid you not, what happened was a duck was forced to invest a massive amount of lead shot in a lab then that multiplied the amount of shots fired in the wild , therefore obviously 10,000 ducks a year died, complete b******x

That's not true. There have been studies in the field worldwide for decades and some going back 100 years on lead shot ingestion by birds. Perhaps have a look at the GWCT website for an overview of the science as regards impact of lead shot ingestion for birds:

Effects of lead on wildlife and wildfowl - Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust

www.gwct.org.uk

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

The Conor O Gorman Appreciation Society, COGAS for short, working hard to save those poor wee chicks

You have stated "weve paid them for the privilege of getting shafted by them". Was that lazy rhetoric or are you actually a member of any shooting organisation?

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

CLA response:

Timeline set for lead ammunition ban • CLA

The CLA responds to the latest government announcement which will phase out lead ammunition for hunting and shooting by 2029

www.cla.org.uk

 

[Smellydog]

Standard steel is totally effective. High speed is unnecessary other for the foreshore or ultra high birds.

But it often shoots a little higher than lead cartridges on the pattern plate and starts with a high velocity, which will make a difference in timing and lead etc.

It does require a bit of getting used to, in exactly the same way as a change in brand of cartridges or a change in gun.

However if you have good basic techniques that clever bit between your ears will reprogramme itself and you start hitting well.

I have certainly this with my guns, hence now pretty much sticking to steel. I just shoot better with it.

And provided you put a bird in the centre of a pattern they are killed very effectively.

You keep reading reports of “I tried steel and its crap” and they have a handful of cartridges and base their decisions on that.

I had a reverse situation. I was shooting my side by side on clays and couldn’t hit a bloody thing with the little white Eley lead cartridges. I normally shoot very well with it. Switched to Grandprix Eco Steel which had been using all season. Clays turned to dust.

However I have used both 4 and 5 steel and I do think the smaller shot gives a better more killing pattern. There is a school of thought that a greater density of smaller pellets knocks a bird much better than a few big ones. I am not convinced shotguns kill by penetration, rather by giving them a good smack in the same was when they hit a car or a tree in mid flight.

I liked that

 

[Chris Richardson]

That's not true. There have been studies in the field worldwide for decades and some going back 100 years on lead shot ingestion by birds. Perhaps have a look at the GWCT website for an overview of the science as regards impact of lead shot ingestion for birds:

Effects of lead on wildlife and wildfowl - Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust

www.gwct.org.uk

Im A tad curious if these studies have been going on for decades and you’re so sure of the facts of these why say no evidence no change and why the sudden volte face when you did ?