timbrayford
Well-Known Member
Actually I don't swallow the lead shot, don't want to chip the porcelain!
Lead ammunition restrictions - government announcement
- Thread starter Conor O'Gorman
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If those statements are any indication that there is a possibility of the continued use of Damascus barrelled ,short chambered small bores and .410s it would be a step in the right direction and a bit of hope that the issue may not be dealt with in a draconian fashion. As stated earlier if pressure by our organisations could enable the continued use of our vintage firearms then it would do much to decrease criticism of the way the issue has been tackled.
No one wants to be continually criticising their representative organisations but when that criticism is considered justified then there’s no other option. An opportunity for praise would be welcome and if a bold effort is made on our behalf maybe that opportunity will arise.
and 28gauge
As have I ,yet the same information continues to be referred to as if it quantified the impact and found it sufficient to justify any proposed restrictions on the use of lead shot.
In fact nowhere is there such evidence it is all conjecture based on modelling and extrapolating which is arguably biased.
The whole argument is akin to the tale of the emperor’s new clothes .
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Haven’t a clue, and nor does the good friend who is one of the bird finders.
countrryboy
Well-Known Member
Have u done much picking up??
Esp now with the clamour for 'high' birds.
Some of the ratios are disgusting, double figures plus
BASC did exactly that.
The HSE review began in 2021, under post-Brexit legislation, mirroring similar EU reviews.
The initial proposals were for a ban on most outdoor recreational uses of lead ammunition. BASC responded to a call for evidence and 2 consultations and encouraged shooters to get involved - that included many threads on this forum. Circa 12K shooters shared their views - out of circa 600K cert holders and circa 1-2 million airgunners.
Nonetheless, with supporting evidence, BASC secured exemptions for lead airgun pellets for target and live quarry shooting; for rifle ammunition for target shooting on approved ranges. Also, exemptions for rifle ammunition for live quarry shooting for calibres below .243.
BASC argued against restrictions on the use of lead shot - for live quarry shooting to continue via the voluntary transition reducing the adverse impacts - for target shooting to continue on clay grounds due to lack of evidence for adverse impacts.
All the arguments are outlined in the BASC responses to the final HSE consultation here:
BASC response to HSE lead ammunition consultation
Read BASC's response to the Health and Safety Executive's socio-economic consultation on proposals to restrict the use of lead ammunition.basc.org.uk
So have u 100% secured the excemptions?
That is set in stone?
If basc can potentially still influence MPs
Do u not think w j and others could as well.
With a liebour government in power, really struggling at polls and shafting farmers/rural areas for fun.
If i was in their shoes id be asking why not just ban the lot?
Hell even their main organiisation has been preaching that. And their 20? yr chairman and life member.
Wots the downside? No votes to be lost, no jobs that concern or matter to them.
I really hope im wrong but i ll be amazed if the exemptions stick when it is made into legislation.
And even if the exemptions do stay u can bet the experiments and studies are already funded and started into toxicity and effects of steel shot, copper bullets ( possibly not as much as they dont like deer either) and single use plastics.
Even the effect of bio wads, as someone else said on here wot are they breaking down too? Are they breaking down to micro plastics? If they are weve got problems as theyre trying to ban restrict them severely at moment.
Trying to appease antis simply doesnae work.
They dont care about anything other than their view/opinion and will use anything they can to make it harder for us to carry on.
To be brutally honest it would benefit uks wildlife far far more than these daft restrictions ever will.
Must admit i really love ur enthusasm and passion u have for game shooting.
I used to be like that but nowadays i really really struggle esp on commercial shoots.
After 40yrs being involved in both FT but mainly diy keepering and a lot off picking up.
Very few shoots really put that much back into the environment, other than supplementry feeding ( and even that many will empty hoppers at start of feb) and cover crops ( but most diy wont be able to afford to put in ).
I think ur shoot is 1 off the rare exceptions putting a massive amount back.
I really take my hat off to u
Even with predator control, i think our wee diy shoot is the only shoot left in whole valley that puts larson traps out. I know big shoots that hardly bother with any fox control until birds are out.
In fact so much so ive stopped going picking up and winding my pack of dogs down a bit.
That transition to steel really finished it for me, wounding rates on that shoot was unacceptable to me
I find shooting released birds very hard to justify now.
The attitude most guns on commercial days show just stinks, and sometimes not a lot better on smaller shoots.
I do debate quite strongly the massive benefits off grouse moor management thou.
Infact i think it was reading a post u wrote a while back that u do have to correct false info on social media
Atleast with that u are forced to manage a natural native habitat and predators so lots more animals benefit.
Rewulf
Well-Known Member
That's a bit rich Conor, coming from a man who can barely answer a straight question, you duck and dive, quote various sources of vague, outdated information, full of estimates, and probabilities, when all along, you and your company fail to serve the membership who pay your wages?
I've a feeling things are going to get a bit rough at BASC, as members realise the betrayal, and leave.
9 out of 10 are only in it for the insurance, and there are many better cheaper alternatives.
So I see some lay offs on the horizon.
Why do I need to prove anything to you,? I do a lot of shooting, all disciplines , run clubs, do culls.
When was the last time you picked up a gun?
Some of us live for shooting, you, and BASC seem to want to make shooting the preserve of the elite.
Shame on you.
countrryboy
Well-Known Member
If that is their official expert opinion, but possibly not well publicised, which i cwn understand.
Even more so when it agrees with my inexpert thoughts.
For clarity with wildfowl their really was no doubt off the negative effect.
But to extrapolate to other birds and esp human health the science is not so clear cut at all.
I must admit i am slightly disappointed with the Gwct quote/extract
GWCT statement on the lead ammunition restrictions:
Snippets from that statement as follows:
- As the UK’s leading wildlife research charity, GWCT has consistently encouraged the shooting community to move from lead ammunition to alternatives on the basis that the scientific evidence shows it has a toxic effect on wildlife.
- The GWCT’s demonstration shoot at Loddington in Leicestershire has not allowed the use of lead ammunition for the past two seasons, and has adapted well to the use of alternatives, primarily steel.
- Switching to non-lead shot is in line with GWCT’s support for sustainable game management. Peer reviewed research by the GWCT clearly demonstrates a biodiversity net gain when game managers follow best practice guidance. The new regulations will help ensure those standards are met and make the case for the sector’s contribution to reversing national biodiversity decline even stronger.
Talk about a mealy mouthed statement.
Making out in 2yrs of non toxic shot has lead to a net boidiversity gain.
I thought they were meant to be scientists.
How in 2 yrs they would even notice any potential gain that they can put exclusively down to non toxic shot.
Have they got control drives/areas where they still use lead to see any biodiversity gain/loss.
Or even switch back to lead to see if a decline? ( and before anyone asks they have done similar before to measure any declines stopped keepering, stoppeddupplementry feeding and mixes of both)
Would love to see the peer reviewed science that conclusively proves that its purely down to steel shot and nothing else.
Its not as if its a big bag shoot shooting 3,4-6 days a week.
And still be a fair bit of lead available i would assume if only been 2 years, in 10years u might not recognise the place with so much boidiversity the lead was holding back.
It took them 10 years at otterburn to prove shooting crows stops them eating eggs ( which is actually a very good study)
So a bit upset their cheapen themselves with soundbites like this
I have been a member of BASC for many years and they do some good on behalf of shooting.However if as you do and I do you mix with a large numbers of shooters it was not hard to reach the conclusion that the voluntarily transition was let’s just say, not one of the orgs finest ideas.
Then what winds me up is all the announcements regarding the lead ban so far, never say what’s bad about the lead ban other than .243 and transition period shortened, it’s too one sided for example “ The government decision …. is therefore good for the game management sector, the wider countryside and its wildlife.” etc etc.
As for getting a bit rough at BASC, when conor said he had put me on his ignore list, treating people like naughty school boys for questioning the integrity of the org, my first reaction was two can play that game and I can ignore BASC come renewal time.
For now 2029 can wait.
HonestJohn
Well-Known Member
Why? There are perfectly good lead free options? Makes no sense to meBASC will be fighting for an exemption for .243 from the live quarry shooting ban on rifle ammunition and for the lead shot ban to have a 5 year rather than 3 year transition period.
BASC response to government announcement on lead ammunition ban
Read BASC's statement in response to the Government's announcement regarding a ban on the sale and use of lead ammunition.
tackb
Well-Known Member
the king of calibres......and 28gauge
I reckon that would be the 8 bore though maybe an abdication by 2019 is on the cards when it’s use will no longer be tolerated inland in Scotland.
28 bore ? Princess ?
tackb
Well-Known Member
I reckon that would be the 8 bore though maybe an abdication by 2019 is on the cards when it’s use will no longer be tolerated inland in Scotland.
28 bore ? Princess ?
your missus told me it's not the size that matters.......
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
I didn’t reply to your initial post, I replied when you trotted out the same tired nonsense for the umpteenth time.
There is no hypocrisy in BASC’s position or the position of its employees. It is perfectly possible to oppose restrictions while accepting that restrictions are inevitable.
Every European shooting organisation had to make the same policy change.
I’m neither unwilling nor unable to engage with your points,I’ve done so previously, I’ll do so again.
You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about, you know nothing of the negotiations over the last 40 years, you know nothing of the change in policy which forced shooting organisations to accept that lead restrictions were inevitable and you refuse to recognise the necessity for that change.
Please don’t lecture me about going off topic, not with your own track record plain for all to see. You have hijacked this thread to continue your campaign of vilification agains one single organisation and one particular official of that organisation.
Ninth attempt, where do you see shooting sports in 5 or 7 years?
I will help you with that, in decline given in march 2025 35% of certificate holders aged 50 to 64 years and 34% aged over 65 (total 69%). And certificates held in 2025 at an all time low since 2008 or 100,000 less that 2015.
Plus approximately two RFDs closing a week.
And that’s before the significant increase in certificate fees and impact of the lead ban.
The young today prefer to shoot via play station games.
Sol
Well-Known Member
I know so many young individuals about my age that want to become stalkers so incredibly bad but are raised under the impression "Hunting in the UK" Is near impossible regarding laws, none of them are aware there's no certificates, licenses or tags, or hunters safety needed compared too the US and using a rifle Is completely legal with pretty much nothing besides a £10 insurance long as there above the age of 17 and with a guide.
There's a huge multi-platform hunting game that has had millions of copies sold that Is targeted towards a teen audience, as expected with most things now adays there's also a social media attached too where users can freely talk to each other the amount of people from the UK that are 15-22 I've seen go into the hunting chat and go "I wish I could hunt, but the laws and regulations are too bad Its near impossible" and I have to educate them on Its actually one of the most relaxed countries in the world when It comes too deer shooting Is crazy.
Literally the only requirement is a little bit of cash, and being over 17, and pretty much any £10 insurance our country Is way more forgiving in terms testing the waters when It comes too getting into shooting as there's no major hoops to cross (like how the US has hunters safety, basically a mandatory Dsc1)
Its purely the fact of education why people arent getting into it, no ones actually aware that Its pretty simple to go out with an outfitter, Obviously that costs money! but even then, there's very affordable days out in this country especially If your down in England.
And if not? out of budget? You can still be eating game meat, giving up the game on FB sells deer for silly prices, hell we've got a "beginners friendly" deer over here (maybe not to skin TBF) but the muntjac! tiny and easy enough to handle.
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
You’re absolutely right.
We are in terminal decline in all branches of the sport and lead has nothing to do with it. As the Boomers who make up most current participants move on in age and infirmity, the lack of new recruits is becoming more and more obvious.
I give it maybe 20 years before active game shooting becomes functionally extinct, target shooting may hang on a bit longer.
Aah well, it’ll see me out. I’ve done my best to recruit new blood, but it’s not easy.
I’m surprised at the lack of a coordinated campaign to recruit, retain and reactivate by our organisations. I know that they’re aware of the problem.
Maybe because lots of people use 243 for foxes, and therefore nothing going into the food chain
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