Lead ammunition restrictions - government announcement

[Conor O'Gorman]

I wonder where a BASC staff member would be if they voiced as pro lead, (as we are all entitled to our opinion) KS has suspended 4/5 mp's in the last 48hrs

BASC is 'pro-lead' as you put it - BASC was successful in influencing decisions to ensure that small calibres, airguns and shooting on ranges will be exempt from restrictions on lead ammunition. BASC held the line throughout the HSE review that it was opposed to any further restrictions on lead ammunition for various well argued reasons, and having held the line against a lead ban for decades previously. Noting your username, BASC has not give up on allowing lead ammunition to continue to be used for .243. Would you be willing to write to your MP asking them to raise BASC's concerns on .243 with the minister?

 

[VSS]

Contentious claim.

Which bit of what I wrote is contentious?

Maybe, but the rest certainly don’t.

Have you enquired?

The FAC and SGC are only part of the issue. Being able to legally possess, acquire, travel independently with and shoot independently are also major obstacles. And that’s before we get onto the topic of getting a FAC or SGC as a minor when your parents doen’t shoot, and gun storage.

Don't parents generally ferry their kids around in pursuit of their hobbies? Isn't that all part and parcel of being a parent?
I spent the "taxi years" traipsing to and from music events with my eldest, livestock shows with my middle child, and shooting events with my youngest.

Again, that view is not universally shared by the Police. See below.

I’m not going to get into an argument over the detail here, but suffice to say that at least some police forces disagree, in writing, with some of what you say. https://www.met.police.uk/advice/ad...ictions-for-firearm-and-shotgun-certificates/

I've only skim read that, but I can't immediately see where it disagrees with what I'm saying. I'll look closer later.

What I should also have said is that the problem is not only regulation, but also the perception of regulations. People are put off by the hassle, the perceived restrictiveness and so on.

I agree. And this is where we can help, when engaging with the public. Have you ever given a talk or presentation or demonstration about shooting to a youth group? If not, you should. It's a good opportunity to dispel some of the myths.

How? It doesn’t change the rules. It doesn’t make it any easier for anyone.

You don't think that a million extra voices speaking up in support of shooting would have any impact?

That’s fine for stalkers, but not shotgun users who are the large majority of shooters. None of the many youngsters I shoot with don’t use non-lead at all - particularly in 28bores and .410s. In all cases, they’re looking at significantly increased costs for a demographic with the least money, particularly if they can’t be passed down old guns.

I'm not so clued up on the situation with regards to shotguns.
I wonder how they've handled the situation in other countries? Didn't I see Denmark quoted somewhere as having banned lead completely, some time ago? I may be misremembering that.

 

[timbrayford]

BASC is 'pro-lead' as you put it - BASC was successful in influencing decisions to ensure that small calibres, airguns and shooting on ranges will be exempt from restrictions on lead ammunition. BASC held the line throughout the HSE review that it was opposed to any further restrictions on lead ammunition for various well argued reasons, and having held the line against a lead ban for decades previously. Noting your username, BASC has not give up on allowing lead ammunition to continue to be used for .243. Would you be willing to write to your MP asking them to raise BASC's concerns on .243 with the minister?

What a pathetic weak response!

 

[Apthorpe]

Which bit of what I wrote is contentious?

The part that contradicted the Met police’s view on the matter. You’re likely to be right, but the point is that many people are told otherwise by the authorities.

Have you enquired?

Yes. And more to the point the people concerned did. One acquaintance didn’t and was arrested.

Don't parents generally ferry their kids around in pursuit of their hobbies? Isn't that all part and parcel of being a parent?
I spent the "taxi years" traipsing to and from music events with my eldest, livestock shows with my middle child, and shooting events with my youngest.

I don’t really see the relevance of this to young people acting independently. I do see how it alters your perspective on the issue if you think young people are always driven around by their parents. It is somewhat different for example for a 13 year old who has to get a lift with someone who doesn’t have a licence, to have a .22LR and buy some ammunition for it on the way over to our farm to shoot vermin unsupervised. I think you’ll concede that is not a viable scenario.

I've only skim read that, but I can't immediately see where it disagrees with what I'm saying. I'll look closer later.



I agree. And this is where we can help, when engaging with the public. Have you ever given a talk or presentation or demonstration about shooting to a youth group? If not, you should. It's a good opportunity to dispel some of the myths.

You don't think that a million extra voices speaking up in support of shooting would have any impact?

None whatsoever.

I'm not so clued up on the situation with regards to shotguns.

With respect, I’m finding this tiresome. It’s indisputably obvious that there are numerous obstacles caused by legislation to young people shooting.

 

[Tim.243]

BASC is 'pro-lead' as you put it - BASC was successful in influencing decisions to ensure that small calibres, airguns and shooting on ranges will be exempt from restrictions on lead ammunition. BASC held the line throughout the HSE review that it was opposed to any further restrictions on lead ammunition for various well argued reasons, and having held the line against a lead ban for decades previously. Noting your username, BASC has not give up on allowing lead ammunition to continue to be used for .243. Would you be willing to write to your MP asking them to raise BASC's concerns on .243 with the minister?

I will be buying a .223 for %70 of my deer are muntjac and swallow the copper for the .270 the .243 will be 17 years old and shot more quarry than the whole of your team in Essex put together so it will be cut up.

You may have held the line but failed to put a Knot at the end so it slipped through your fingers like a eel on a greasy pole.

Write to my MP they can't fix the potholes, As I said before the Post Office scandal ruined hundreds of lives because of "incorrect data"
with them claiming it was correct (BUT IT WAS NOT)
No one will ever recheck the data on the lead as there is no money or incentive to do so.
People go to prison as people get things wrong, people die because people make mistakes but you won't except it could be wrong.

 

[Liveonce]

BASC is 'pro-lead' as you put it - BASC was successful in influencing decisions to ensure that small calibres, airguns and shooting on ranges will be exempt from restrictions on lead ammunition. BASC held the line throughout the HSE review that it was opposed to any further restrictions on lead ammunition for various well argued reasons, and having held the line against a lead ban for decades previously. Noting your username, BASC has not give up on allowing lead ammunition to continue to be used for .243. Would you be willing to write to your MP asking them to raise BASC's concerns on .243 with the minister?

And yet again you do not ask to write to the MP to also request lead shot continues to be use for clay shooting at CPSA grounds.

So I will, please all on SD write to your MP and ask them to support the continued use of lead shot on ranges, grounds for target shooting that are affiliated with the CPSA.

Thank you.
PS you are welcome conor.

 

[VSS]

Yes. And more to the point the people concerned did. One acquaintance didn’t and was arrested.

Yet a surprising number of colleges and universities are able to field a clay pigeon shooting team

With respect, I’m finding this tiresome.

Me too!

It’s indisputably obvious that there are numerous obstacles caused by legislation to young people shooting.

On that we'll have to agree to differ.
Personally, I think our current legislation is remarkably accommodating when it comes to getting young people into shooting.
If people choose not to take advantage of the opportunities, that's no fault of mine.

 

[timbrayford]

And yet again you do not ask to write to the MP to also request lead shot continues to be use for clay shooting at CPSA grounds.

So I will, please all on SD write to your MP and ask them to support the continued use of lead shot on ranges, grounds for target shooting that are affiliated with the CPSA.

Thank you.
PS you are welcome conor.

I think that I'll go a bit further than that when the time comes but I need to see what the Govt. actually puts before parliament first.

 

[Apthorpe]

Yet a surprising number of colleges and universities are able to field a clay pigeon shooting team

I know. I was in mine. It depended essentially on privilege. You would go and stay with X who had an estate near the competition site and borrow guns. You absolutely could not take guns onto university property.
Whatever, the universities’ rules are their rules.

Me too!

On that we'll have to agree to differ.
Personally, I think our current legislation is remarkably accommodating when it comes to getting young people into shooting.
If people choose not to take advantage of the opportunities, that's no fault of mine.

 

[Ruger#1]

BASC is 'pro-lead' as you put it

So how exactly do you explain your continued support for further lead shot restrictions as evidenced by the majority of your posts regarding lead shot use.
To state that BASC is pro lead is insufficient and the generalised claims in support of that contention are not evidence of that claim being an accurate reflection in practice.
If BASC is pro lead why does it condone the misinterpretation of scientific data by yourself to support the case for further restrictions. You deliberately reference material that you have not critically interpreted in order to support your own agenda of portraying lead shot ingestion inland as a significant factor in deciding the fate of lead shot use in the UK.
If BASC is truly pro lead it would not permit its representative to state the case so strongly for further lead shot restrictions. when it’s stated official policy is to oppose further lead shot restrictions.
Perhaps yourself or one of your acolytes could explain this contradiction and state in straightforward terms how under the circumstances we can expect BASC to work in our best interests and represent the whole shooting community when it is clear that their own representative is guilty of following his own alternative agenda contrary to BASC official policy.

 

[VSS]

I know. I was in mine. It depended essentially on privilege. You would go and stay with X who had an estate near the competition site and borrow guns. You absolutely could not take guns onto university property.
Whatever, the universities’ rules are their rules.

Did you not get to practice on uni ground?
That's what we spent our Wednesday afternoons doing!
One of the lecturers coached us.
First year students lived on campus and kept their guns in the communal lockup (accessible only by prior arrangement), and those of us in private digs fitted our own gun cabinets.
There was no need to inform the police of our storage arrangements, as moving into student accommodation doesn't constitute a permanent change of address.

I'll concede it's probably not quite that relaxed these days, but it sounds like you had it tougher than us anyway.

 

[Nimrod1960]

I will be buying a .223 for %70 of my deer are muntjac and swallow the copper for the .270 the .243 will be 17 years old and shot more quarry than the whole of your team in Essex put together so it will be cut up.

You may have held the line but failed to put a Knot at the end so it slipped through your fingers like a eel on a greasy pole.

Write to my MP they can't fix the potholes, As I said before the Post Office scandal ruined hundreds of lives because of "incorrect data"
with them claiming it was correct (BUT IT WAS NOT)
No one will ever recheck the data on the lead as there is no money or incentive to do so.
People go to prison as people get things wrong, people die because people make mistakes but you won't except it could be wrong.

Mate dont give up on the .243, I have shot Muntys Roe and even Sika with .243 solid copper. All dead no suffering and less carcass damage.
Just saying

 

[enfieldspares]

Did you not get to practice on uni ground?
That's what we spent our Wednesday afternoons doing!
One of the lecturers coached us.
First year students lived on campus and kept their guns in the communal lockup (accessible only by prior arrangement), and those of us in private digs fitted our own gun cabinets.
There was no need to inform the police of our storage arrangements, as moving into student accommodation doesn't constitute a permanent change of address.

I'll concede it's probably not quite that relaxed these days, but it sounds like you had it tougher than us anyway.

Leeds University - the same Leeds University Sir Keir attended - had in the late 1970s a small bore rifle and pistol club and they had, indeed, both rifles and pistols and the range was on the main campus. The pistols were Browning 150s. Mind it had a sand backstop (and it and indoor range) and it was bloomin' unpleasant experience. The back of your throat was pretty raw after a range session. So I never shot much.

 

[timbrayford]

Mate dont give up on the .243, I have shot Muntys Roe and even Sika with .243 solid copper. All dead no suffering and less carcass damage.
Just saying

That's my experience on muntjac and roe with home loads of Barnes ttsx 80 gr, however I had to put a follow up shot into a Fallow yearling. Discussed this with Tim Weston and the experience that he has had.
On the estate that he manages the Fallow run 600 metres or so before succumbing to the shot with copper/243. I've gone over to using .270 / 95gr Barnes now for Fallow.

 

[Tim.243]

Mate dont give up on the .243, I have shot Muntys Roe and even Sika with .243 solid copper. All dead no suffering and less carcass damage.
Just saying

I shoot all with the .243 but also have a copper load for the .270 and shall buy a .223 and put a muzzle brake on it....
The .243 will RIP and they can go ############## lol

 

[Smellydog]

I shoot all with the .243 but also have a copper load for the .270 and shall buy a .223 and put a muzzle brake on it....
The .243 will RIP and they can go ############## lol

What's the muzzle brake for on the 223?

 

[Smellydog]

BASC is a political organisation.
They are just playing the political game.

To protect the large shoots they have thrown certain low end minions under wheels but then spout victory for the minions by winning a few compromises.

Typical politics of the UK, take with one hand and give with the other, claim everyone is a winner and some go home believing the bs and some resent.

Our local representative is demonstrating the above consistently.
His mandate is to protect at all costs the large commercialised shoots but win some concessions to appease the masses.

He gets his feathers all ruffled when the realisation sinks in that some of ain't falling for it.
That is why I left way back in the 90's and it appears it's far worse today!

Some of us realise that it is the classic need for greed of the wealthy elite that has stirred the anti blood sports over many years so that they have gotten smart, infiltrated policy making and so on.

The blame lies fairly at the feet of the hoo har Henry's than anyone else and the multitude is to pay for it.

 

[Tim.243]

What's the muzzle brake for on the 223?

For me.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

BASC is a political organisation.
They are just playing the political game.

To protect the large shoots they have thrown certain low end minions under wheels but then spout victory for the minions by winning a few compromises.

Typical politics of the UK, take with one hand and give with the other, claim everyone is a winner and some go home believing the bs and some resent.

Our local representative is demonstrating the above consistently.
His mandate is to protect at all costs the large commercialised shoots but win some concessions to appease the masses.

He gets his feathers all ruffled when the realisation sinks in that some of ain't falling for it.
That is why I left way back in the 90's and it appears it's far worse today!

Some of us realise that it is the classic need for greed of the wealthy elite that has stirred the anti blood sports over many years so that they have gotten smart, infiltrated policy making and so on.

The blame lies fairly at the feet of the hoo har Henry's than anyone else and the multitude is to pay for it.

BASC is indeed politically engaged. Here is the most recent example:

Minister hails £246m natural capital contribution from Scottish shooting

Scotland’s shooting sector delivers more than £246 million in annual natural capital benefits according to a new BASC report.

basc.org.uk

Perhaps your views of BASC are misplaced. This is what BASC stands for:



We are the ones who are here for you through thick and thin, fair weather and foul. From the corridors of power to every corner of your community we are your friendly face, your unrivalled experts. Whatever you are facing we will stand with you and for you, so stand with us because together we are allies, a tribe, a family. Together we are stronger, together we are BASC.

What BASC stands for

We are the keeper of our traditions and the guardians of our future. We are stability and we are change.

basc.org.uk

 

[Dalua]

We are the ones who are here for you through thick and thin, fair weather and foul. From the corridors of power to every corner of your community we are your friendly face, your unrivalled experts. Whatever you are facing we will stand with you and for you, so stand with us because together we are allies, a tribe, a family. Together we are stronger, together we are BASC.

Well, as you point out from time to time, you're there for your members, really - though your high-level political stuff, for good and ill, affects all of us.

What appears to me to be absent from BASC is the faintest glimmer of recognition that it could ever have got anything at all wrong. It seems to me not just that there's a 'never apologise, never explain' approach to the public - but that the organisation at the highest levels appears to consider itself infallible: and it is that that makes me worried about what they're likely to end up getting us involved in next....