Ban on lead shot what about old guns

[grandad of the woods]

So was talking to my dad and we were discussing my grandad's old Spanish side by sides (not profed for steel shot)
My question is so onces leas has banned I'll assume that means these guns can no longer be used ??? Or is there an exemption for old shotguns and if so does that mean cert makers will still produce lead shot certs
Or is it a matter of the lead being banned will force gun owners on lead only shotguns to have no choice to have the deactivated or destroyed ???

IV not seen anything written about this in any of the ban information on what happens to older guns

 

[VSS]

So was talking to my dad and we were discussing my grandad's old Spanish side by sides (not profed for steel shot)
My question is so onces leas has banned I'll assume that means these guns can no longer be used ??? Or is there an exemption for old shotguns and if so does that mean cert makers will still produce lead shot certs
Or is it a matter of the lead being banned will force gun owners on lead only shotguns to have no choice to have the deactivated or destroyed ???

IV not seen anything written about this in any of the ban information on what happens to older guns

The fact it's not proofed for non lead doesn't mean it won't work with non lead. It just means it wasn't tested for non lead at the time.
My understanding is that it's only likely to be the high velocity non lead that you wouldn't be able to use. Standard velocity non lead cartridges should be fine.

 

[kenbro]

Oh

 

[Pedro]

There's no exemptions for old guns. I suspect older guns will be fine for normal steel loads so long as the chokes aren't tighter than half. And the likes of bismuth and tungsten matrix (if you've got deep pockets) too. It's always open to you to get a gun re-proofed of course.

https://www.gunmakers.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/British-Proof-Authority-Price-List-2022.pdf

 

[Dunwaters]

As above, provided that its in good condition, chambered for 70mm cartridges and not over half choke theres no problem with standard steel loads.

 

[grandad of the woods]

Thanks guys will make my dad happy to be able to still keep n use grandad guns

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

Not all steel is "HIGH PERFORMANCE STEEL"

Context:
The difference between one choke and another is approximately 5 thou, 0.127mm
Diameter
Radially you are 2.5 thou, 0.06mm

ALL steel is in a cup, not touching your barrel
ALL cups are soft plastic or softer Biowad construction
The wads are approximately 0.5-0.75mm thick RADIALLY
Point being your soft wad compresses down at the choke far more than the constriction, the shot construction itself is not an issue


The contriction at the muzzle is not where the pressure at proof is measured
The issue with choke is largely not an issue
The issue with pressure is not an issue if you stick to standard performance steel (if confused look at the case head, unless it is in extended 16mm case head form it is STANDARD pressure just like all your lead game cartridges)

The member organisation have let the industry down on this

show me one example of an old gun that had blown up solely down to use of steel cartridges (not blocked barrels or already being wafer thin out of proof).
Doesnt happen

 

[timbrayford]

Not all steel is "HIGH PERFORMANCE STEEL"

Context:
The difference between one choke and another is approximately 5 thou, 0.127mm
Diameter
Radially you are 2.5 thou, 0.06mm

ALL steel is in a cup, not touching your barrel
ALL cups are soft plastic or softer Biowad construction
The wads are approximately 0.5-0.75mm thick RADIALLY
Point being your soft wad compresses down at the choke far more than the constriction, the shot construction itself is not an issue


The contriction at the muzzle is not where the pressure at proof is measured
The issue with choke is largely not an issue
The issue with pressure is not an issue if you stick to standard performance steel (if confused look at the case head, unless it is in extended 16mm case head form it is STANDARD pressure just like all your lead game cartridges)

The member organisation have let the industry down on this

show me one example of an old gun that had blown up solely down to use of steel cartridges (not blocked barrels or already being wafer thin out of proof).
Doesnt happen

Surely the issue is barrel bulging rendering the gun out of proof? I've seen this on a modern Miroku , the bulge was approximately 10" from the breech. I don't know the precise details other than it was caused by a steel shot cartridge, perhaps the sticky resin deposit left by some biowads was responsible, this issue seems to have been overlooked by the HSE?

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

Surely the issue is barrel bulging rendering the gun out of proof? I've seen this on a modern Miroku , the bulge was approximately 10" from the breech. I don't know the precise details other than it was caused by a steel shot cartridge, perhaps the sticky resin deposit left by some biowads was responsible, this issue seems to have been overlooked by the HSE?

Can you say for sure it was SOLELY down to cartridge type though?
As bulges at the breech end of the gun are almost exclusively caused by blockages and obstructions

Yes, is the answer, a bulge obviously renders the gun "out of proof" although technically its more a case of it failing structural inspection

HSE can't be babysitting anyone who doesnt regulalrly check the condition of the bore of their rifle/shotgun

 

[Apthorpe]

Not all steel is "HIGH PERFORMANCE STEEL"

Context:
The difference between one choke and another is approximately 5 thou, 0.127mm
Diameter
Radially you are 2.5 thou, 0.06mm

ALL steel is in a cup, not touching your barrel
ALL cups are soft plastic or softer Biowad construction
The wads are approximately 0.5-0.75mm thick RADIALLY
Point being your soft wad compresses down at the choke far more than the constriction, the shot construction itself is not an issue


The contriction at the muzzle is not where the pressure at proof is measured
The issue with choke is largely not an issue

I'm somewhat nervous on this point because all the manufacturers apparently state that it is an issue, and I've not yet found a gunsmith who recommends steel over lead (not that I've done an exhaustive survey).

The issue with pressure is not an issue if you stick to standard performance steel (if confused look at the case head, unless it is in extended 16mm case head form it is STANDARD pressure just like all your lead game cartridges)

The member organisation have let the industry down on this

show me one example of an old gun that had blown up solely down to use of steel cartridges (not blocked barrels or already being wafer thin out of proof).
Doesnt happen

I've got among other stuff a box of Eley VIP Steel standard steel shot. It's not a 16mm case head. The gun's a standard nitro proof, 3/4 and full choke gun. The label on the box and the website very clearly state "Only to be used in steel proofed guns." Your advice is that this is completely safe to use?
I've got some other cartridges which have been rattling around a bag for a while. Some of these have 15mm case heads, they would be definitely standard pressure cartridges?

If the cartridges are high performance steel, is your opinion that the pressure problem acts near the chambers where the pressure is highest, and therefore as explained above not an issue at the chokes because obviously the pressure would be considerably lower by there?

 

[timbrayford]

Can you say for sure it was SOLELY down to cartridge type though?
As bulges at the breech end of the gun are almost exclusively caused by blockages and obstructions

Yes, is the answer, a bulge obviously renders the gun "out of proof" although technically its more a case of it failing structural inspection

HSE can't be babysitting anyone who doesnt regulalrly check the condition of the bore of their rifle/shotgun

No I can't, I don't know the full circumstances, but what was unusual was it was a bulge at the breech end as opposed to around the chokes.

I don't think that the sticky residue issue has received much publicity yet, it was on Field sports Channel a few weeks ago, apparently maize derived bio-wads appear to be the culprits.

But unless there's a wide spread warning about this hazard why would you be aware of it, especially if it could build up in initially clean barrels during a round of clays?

As for the HSE, if they are going to categorically claim that there are alternatives to leaded loaded cartridges do they not have a duty of care to consider all the circumstances? After all there's a whole world of difference between firing a handful of shots during a wildfowling trip and on the number of shots fired during just one trip to a clay ground.

 

[Heym SR20]

Eley Hawk Game Cartridges | High Performance Game Loads

Explore Eley Hawk’s range of high-performance game cartridges, designed for precision and reliability in every game shooting environment.

www.eleyhawkltd.com

Or

12G Regal Steel Game with Bio-Wad | Gamebore

A true 2.5

gamebore.com

Pretty much all Spanish shotguns started coming into the UK in the 1950’s. They have been proofed in under Spain so a Spanish Proof would be the equivalent of a British Proof of the same period. Indeed under the CIP proof agreements all the proof houses in the various member countries were recognised and equivalent.

I would have the chokes measured and if required opened up. Many Spanish guns were bored with tight chokes, as they can opened up, but cannot be tightened. Steel gives a tighter pattern as pellets don’t deform.

 

[grandad of the woods]

All I know is in my hatsan semi auto the full shoke says lead shot only and then this makes this choke completely redundant when lead being banned
I have seen no test or any scientific prof that bismuth or tungsten plastic shot if consumed is better for you then lead (I do know we have been using lead rounds since the invention of the gun and have been consuming lead pellets in game since then)
With the exception of a clay range how much lead is really being scatted over a 20 hecters of field is causing that much damage to the soil

And before any bans being put in place a price alternative should be matched and proper studies of the effects of the alternative shot being done on barrels and human consumption

 

[timbrayford]

Covered before on SD but I'll post it again, Steve Horton on Biowads

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

All I know is in my hatsan semi auto the full shoke says lead shot only and then this makes this choke completely redundant when lead being banned
I have seen no test or any scientific prof that bismuth or tungsten plastic shot if consumed is better for you then lead (I do know we have been using lead rounds since the invention of the gun and have been consuming lead pellets in game since then)
With the exception of a clay range how much lead is really being scatted over a 20 hecters of field is causing that much damage to the soil

And before any bans being put in place a price alternative should be matched and proper studies of the effects of the alternative shot being done on barrels and human consumption

Have you looked?

Lead poisoning

Lead is a naturally occurring toxic metal found in the Earth’s crust. Its widespread use has resulted in extensive environmental contamination, human exposure and significant public health problems in many parts of the world.

www.who.int

• There is no level of exposure to lead that is known to be without harmful effects.

Lead toxicity: a review - PMC

Lead toxicity is an important environmental disease and its effects on the human body are devastating. There is almost no function in the human body which is not affected by lead toxicity. Though in countries like US and Canada the use of lead has ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Lead Poisoning

Long-term exposure to lead can cause serious health problems, particularly in young kids, so it's important to find out whether your child might be at risk for lead exposure.

kidshealth.org

Lead: information for the public

www.gov.uk

Bismuth doesn't rate in the top 10 of toxic metals

Toxic Mechanisms of Five Heavy Metals: Mercury, Lead, Chromium, Cadmium, and Arsenic - PMC

The industrial activities of the last century have caused massive increases in human exposure to heavy metals. Mercury, lead, chromium, cadmium, and arsenic have been the most common heavy metals that induced human poisonings. Here, we reviewed the ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Just because you havent died doesnt make it any less toxic

 

[Liveonce]

There's no exemptions for old guns. I suspect older guns will be fine for normal steel loads so long as the chokes aren't tighter than half. And the likes of bismuth and tungsten matrix (if you've got deep pockets) too. It's always open to you to get a gun re-proofed of course.

https://www.gunmakers.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/British-Proof-Authority-Price-List-2022.pdf

think tungsten matrix shot is tougher on guns than steel and not comparable to bismuth.

 

[Liveonce]

HP steel cartridges should say so on the cartridge and be marked 1050 bar i have yet to see any in a case length less than 3”or 12ga

 

[timbrayford]

Have you looked?

Lead poisoning

Lead is a naturally occurring toxic metal found in the Earth’s crust. Its widespread use has resulted in extensive environmental contamination, human exposure and significant public health problems in many parts of the world.

www.who.int

• There is no level of exposure to lead that is known to be without harmful effects.

Lead toxicity: a review - PMC

Lead toxicity is an important environmental disease and its effects on the human body are devastating. There is almost no function in the human body which is not affected by lead toxicity. Though in countries like US and Canada the use of lead has ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Lead Poisoning

Long-term exposure to lead can cause serious health problems, particularly in young kids, so it's important to find out whether your child might be at risk for lead exposure.

kidshealth.org

Lead: information for the public

www.gov.uk

Bismuth doesn't rate in the top 10 of toxic metals

Toxic Mechanisms of Five Heavy Metals: Mercury, Lead, Chromium, Cadmium, and Arsenic - PMC

The industrial activities of the last century have caused massive increases in human exposure to heavy metals. Mercury, lead, chromium, cadmium, and arsenic have been the most common heavy metals that induced human poisonings. Here, we reviewed the ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Just because you havent died doesnt make it any less toxic

But it does make it something of a mystery why so many of us have apparently suffered no ill effect.
How often have you personally visited your GP or A&E after eating lead shot game, and how did they diagnose it in you?

 

[Littlekilmory]

Having grown up being constantly exposed to the neurotoxin, lead tetraethyl - used in leaded petrol - I really can’t get too worried about lead shot.
For reference, all the toxic heavy metals are much more dangerous in compound form - especially organic compounds. Metallic versions really aren’t a concern.
Oh, and the current favoured primer chemistry uses lead styphnate as the explosive ingredient; go figure…

 

[LuckyEddie]

Have you looked?

Lead poisoning

Lead is a naturally occurring toxic metal found in the Earth’s crust. Its widespread use has resulted in extensive environmental contamination, human exposure and significant public health problems in many parts of the world.

www.who.int

• There is no level of exposure to lead that is known to be without harmful effects.

Lead toxicity: a review - PMC

Lead toxicity is an important environmental disease and its effects on the human body are devastating. There is almost no function in the human body which is not affected by lead toxicity. Though in countries like US and Canada the use of lead has ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Lead Poisoning

Long-term exposure to lead can cause serious health problems, particularly in young kids, so it's important to find out whether your child might be at risk for lead exposure.

kidshealth.org

Lead: information for the public

www.gov.uk

Bismuth doesn't rate in the top 10 of toxic metals

Toxic Mechanisms of Five Heavy Metals: Mercury, Lead, Chromium, Cadmium, and Arsenic - PMC

The industrial activities of the last century have caused massive increases in human exposure to heavy metals. Mercury, lead, chromium, cadmium, and arsenic have been the most common heavy metals that induced human poisonings. Here, we reviewed the ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Just because you havent died doesnt make it any less toxic

Granted lead is toxic.

However, you’re more likely to die from lead poisoning in an old house in England built near lead mines than you are to die from ingested lead shot.

I’ll take my chances with lead shot any day as opposed to living in Richmond for a decade.

The unseen dangers of lead contamination in the UK

As floods intensify, the threat of the toxic metal seeping into the food chain is as big a problem as sewage in rivers or air pollution

www.ft.com