Old SxSs

[harrygrey382]

Have a read of the Vintage Gun Journals - lots of really useful information Read The Vintage Gun Journal by Vintage Guns

Then I would look locally in Australia for guns. There will have been many many British made shotguns sent down to Aus back in the day.

Two main types

Sidelocks - generally on top end guns. Are things of beauty, but, and its a big but, they have lots of small parts in their lock work and typically cost of repair starts at a few hundred pounds. Mostly parts will need to be made from a piece of steel, filed and cut to shape, fitted, then removed, hardened and annealed and then stoned fir final fit.

Box locks - originally invented by Messers Anson & Deally who were employed at Westly Richards - one was the gunsmith, the other the MD and their names were on the original patent. It is a very much simpler action with about 4 moving parts on each side. Use of the original patent was granted widely to the rest of the Birmingham guntrade and large numbers of boxlock guns were produced by various makers. Some were finished by the maker themselves (Webley & Scott) and sold under those names, but vast numbers were supplied to other retailers around the world in various states of finish, with the local retailer then finishing and putting their name on it.

What to look for:

1) Screws and pins - a good gunsmith will know how to use a well fitting turnscrew and the correct downward pressure and force to remove a screw or pin without damaging it. If the screws are burred then an idiot has been inside the gun.

2) Barrels - on the flats of the barrels will be the proof marks. One of the marks indicates the original barrel bore dimensions. Over time bores do wear, but most of the wear will come from barrels being cleaned up because somebody hasn’t bothered to clean them and they have got pitted.

Barrel wall thickness - not marked on the barrels, but thickness again gives an indication of wear. Guns originally had various different thicknesses- some were thin 20 thou from factory, others were 30 to 35 thou. If the walls are thin then there is not much future room to do other work. It’s like a car engine with 150,000 miles on it.

Much more important though is overall condition. The barrels should ring like a bell. If not then major work is required.

Overall condition- look for a gun in good overall unmessed condition. Try and find something that has been put away well cleaned and not restored. Look at plenty and you will build up a good idea of what works for you.

Fit - simple - look at the top corner of the room. Close your eyes and mount the gun - if its pointing where you look then its a reasonable fit. If it doesn’t move on to the next.

Happy hunting.

Thanks for the advice explanation. Bear in mind I will be buying sight-unseen. I’m not driving thousands of kms around the state for a $500 gun, and nothing is ever close - there are zero local options. I’ve never considered importing, just the paper work would be 2-3x the cost of the gun and there’s heaps of choice here. I hadn’t considered barrel thickness and refinishing, didn’t even know that was an issue! And 150k miles would be extremely low mileage for me… I’ll just be relying on the gunshop’s word, which I’ve found (seeing as I’ve bought every rifle I’ve ever bought sight unseen) is generally reliable. I’ll have to accept the fit, and if it’s bad enough to worry me I’ll have to do something about it. But your check sounds a good one.
The boxlock vs sidelock thing is interesting - I’ve been reading up on it. Yes the finest are generally sidelock, but it’s seemingly an inferior design and result? The only (dubious) advantage being more area for engraving? The Brno ZP49 sound like a nice sidelock ejector.

There is, or used to be an auction house near Melbourne? I don't know the law in Australia about buying in one State and transporting to another.

Yeah there is but it’s infrequent and with auction house premiums doesn’t end up that cheap. Buying interstate is not an issue

There really are so many “makes” of old English SXS guns. Most towns at one time had a business that sold them. Of course they were mostly Birmingham made box locks that were finished for or by the local sellers and sold under their own name. If you aren’t fussed about having ejectors they cost peanuts these days. In fact most firearms dealers in the UK really don’t want them, some won’t have them at all and some, if you are buying a new gun will take them in part exchange at a price that is strangely similar to the discount you would otherwise have got.

Which means many old guns are sadly going to the great furnace in the sky. Which is good if you want one.

The main thing though isn’t necessarily looking for particular makes, but condition. Get a nice one that’s mechanically sound with good barrels and you’ll be good to go.

That’s something I’ve been struggling to get my head around - it seems with a lot of the smaller names they may all be using the same actions, but there are sometime exceptions which I would like to know. From what I can tell Greener and BSA did make all their own stuff? The Greeners consistently command a higher price than most of the smaller names (army and navy being an exception), and this is what I’m trying to decide if it’s worth it or not. For example there’s a nice Holloway and Naughton for $500, good condition tight action guaranteed good working order. I google this name and reports are that it is up there with the best - but surely this can’t be right or it would never be that cheap? Or are extractors that undesirable? They would be nice (my single barrel Stevens is ejector), but I don’t know how much they really help in reality…
The Cashmore is in a similar state, but $375. The cheapest Greener is $800, and it’s with full full chokes which I dont really want - all others are over $1k. And with ZP49s sitting in the $600 region they’re interesting, but I like the idea of it being English. This is the context of my ponderings. I could buy a $1k+ gun but will the snakes really be any more dead?

@harrygrey382, has it got to be hammerless?

Yep

 

[Sika98k]

Thanks for the advice explanation. Bear in mind I will be buying sight-unseen. I’m not driving thousands of kms around the state for a $500 gun, and nothing is ever close - there are zero local options. I’ve never considered importing, just the paper work would be 2-3x the cost of the gun and there’s heaps of choice here. I hadn’t considered barrel thickness and refinishing, didn’t even know that was an issue! And 150k miles would be extremely low mileage for me… I’ll just be relying on the gunshop’s word, which I’ve found (seeing as I’ve bought every rifle I’ve ever bought sight unseen) is generally reliable. I’ll have to accept the fit, and if it’s bad enough to worry me I’ll have to do something about it. But your check sounds a good one.
The boxlock vs sidelock thing is interesting - I’ve been reading up on it. Yes the finest are generally sidelock, but it’s seemingly an inferior design and result? The only (dubious) advantage being more area for engraving? The Brno ZP49 sound like a nice sidelock ejector.

Yeah there is but it’s infrequent and with auction house premiums doesn’t end up that cheap. Buying interstate is not an issue

That’s something I’ve been struggling to get my head around - it seems with a lot of the smaller names they may all be using the same actions, but there are sometime exceptions which I would like to know. From what I can tell Greener and BSA did make all their own stuff? The Greeners consistently command a higher price than most of the smaller names (army and navy being an exception), and this is what I’m trying to decide if it’s worth it or not. For example there’s a nice Holloway and Naughton for $500, good condition tight action guaranteed good working order. I google this name and reports are that it is up there with the best - but surely this can’t be right or it would never be that cheap? Or are extractors that undesirable? They would be nice (my single barrel Stevens is ejector), but I don’t know how much they really help in reality…
The Cashmore is in a similar state, but $375. The cheapest Greener is $800, and it’s with full full chokes which I dont really want - all others are over $1k. And with ZP49s sitting in the $600 region they’re interesting, but I like the idea of it being English. This is the context of my ponderings. I could buy a $1k+ gun but will the snakes really be any more dead?

Yep

Army&Navy never, ever, made any Firearms, it was a Co operative society to do bulk buying to supply the troops etc in the colonies. Generally they are Midland guns, Webley or, I believe, Greener. Holloway and Naughton is a good name. Pick up an English SxS and then that Brno ZP49,. There’s no comparison. Brno and Baikal both sit like a dead weight between your hands.

 

[enfieldspares]

Folks as entirely all the parts "rolled their own" would be likely be Greener, Webley, Bonehill, Midland Gun Company, BSA I think...and may be very well wrong...others would have bought in at least some components such as actions or barrels and assembled them with their, or someone else's barrels or lockwork. But no shame in that. Look inside a Boss gun and the locks will have someone else's name on them! William Evans sidelocks were made by Webley.

 

[harrygrey382]

I’m

Army&Navy never, ever, made any Firearms, it was a Co operative society to do bulk buying to supply the troops etc in the colonies. Generally they are Midland guns, Webley or, I believe, Greener. Holloway and Naughton is a good name. Pick up an English SxS and then that Brno ZP49,. There’s no comparison. Brno and Baikal both sit like a dead weight between your hands.

Right - well if the Brno handles anything like a mate’s Baikal which has the ergonomics of a 4x2 that’s pretty unappealing. Good to hear about H&N as I’m definitely considering that one

Folks as entirely all the parts "rolled their own" would be likely be Greener, Webley, Bonehill, Midland Gun Company, BSA I think...and may be very well wrong...others would have bought in at least some components such as actions or barrels and assembled them with their, or someone else's barrels or lockwork. But no shame in that. Look inside a Boss gun and the locks will have someone else's name on them! William Evans sidelocks were made by Webley.

Ok that’s good to know. So following from that would there be any reason to pay a premium for the Greener name all else (eg condition, spec) being equal? I started off thinking so, but now reconsidering

 

[harrygrey382]

.

 

[Heym SR20]

Here is a copy of Webley & Scotts wholesale catalogue for the trade from 1914. It shows a very large number of different styles, levels of finish etc. If you look at the fences, you will see the same turning up with many different makers.

https://huntershouse.dk/files/webley-scoot/webley-scott-katalog.pdf

Not in this catalogue, but there is folding 410 shotgun that is a Single barrelled boxlock generally referred to as the Ward Patent. My grandmother had one labelled Army & Navy, and I have had two, one named “English” the other J Hooton, Liverpool”. All have a very plain finish.

The auctions have had a few over the years

HOLTS Auctioneers

HOLTS are Europe's leading Auctioneers of Fine Modern & Antique Guns.

www.holtsauctioneers.com

With additional engravings on the side and a bright finish (probably later, not original) to the action.

And

Lot 183 - Carswell .410 single barrel folding shotgun

Lot 183 - Carswell .410 single barrel folding shotgun

www.wilson55.com

It didn’t just happen in the UK. On the continent liege in Belgium, Suhl in Germany and Ferlach in Austria all had guilds producing guns to similar designs, ultimately retailed by others.

It is still common practice today. The modern Webley & Scotts are Turkish made guns, and the likes of William Powell, William Evans and EJ Churchill use makers in Italy and Spain to build guns finished and named to their brands.

 

[Heym SR20]

Ejector vs Non Ejector

An ejector has two extra locks in the forend, barrels or action (depending on the design) that kick the cartridges out of the gun when you open it. Your loader would then pick up all the empties.

Ejectors add extra complexity. Some work well, some designs didn’t work so well.

A Non Ejector has a simple extractor that lifts the cartridges out of the breech. You then have to pull them out and put them in your pocket rather than scrabbling around in the dirt looking fir the empties that have been kicked put by the extractors. Of course you can learn a neat trick of catching the empties as they are kicked out.

If you can find a good boxlock non ejector don’t pass on it - they usually sell for little money but they can be really nice little guns.

 

[Heym SR20]

I may be flogged, whilst British guns are often very fine things, there were also plenty built to a budget and exported to the colonies. There were also plenty of Belgian guns, sold under a British name also exported.

From the 1950’s the Spanish gunmakers rather took over. Again plenty of cheap quality guns sold under all sorts of names. I remember in the 80’s Gunmark had the Kestrels and Sables, Parker Hale also had a range. (I did a product design review for an O level in Craft, Design and Technology and i recall do it on shotguns available at the time).

However the one gun that stood well above all the others are the AYAs. My late father bought an AYA No3 Boxlock non ejector in the early 1960’s. He recently died and it’s now in my cabinet. I am probably biased since all my life I have known that gun, but they do handle and function very well. My daughter has a 20 bore version. Perhaps their barrel walls are a little thicker than they need be which adds a little weight, but that is often no bad thing. They were often tightly choked from the factory - easily opened up. Earlier ones are definitely better fitted and finished.

If you want a good side by side for not a lot of money and are not fussed about a British name don’t overlook an AYA.

 

[enfieldspares]

If you want a good side by side for not a lot of money and are not fussed about a British name don’t overlook an AYA.

Webley 700
Dovetail lump barrels
Hinge pin machined as part of the action

AYA
Chopper lump barrels
Replaceable hinge pin

Simpy the AYA is the better design even with modern techniques of adding metal to the hook on the lumps on guns with none replaceable hinge pins. And if Spanish guns are good enough for the King of Spain then who am I to decry their quality of that can be produced by their "best" makers.

 

[Flash G 74]

I may be flogged, whilst British guns are often very fine things, there were also plenty built to a budget and exported to the colonies. There were also plenty of Belgian guns, sold under a British name also exported.

From the 1950’s the Spanish gunmakers rather took over. Again plenty of cheap quality guns sold under all sorts of names. I remember in the 80’s Gunmark had the Kestrels and Sables, Parker Hale also had a range. (I did a product design review for an O level in Craft, Design and Technology and i recall do it on shotguns available at the time).

However the one gun that stood well above all the others are the AYAs. My late father bought an AYA No3 Boxlock non ejector in the early 1960’s. He recently died and it’s now in my cabinet. I am probably biased since all my life I have known that gun, but they do handle and function very well. My daughter has a 20 bore version. Perhaps their barrel walls are a little thicker than they need be which adds a little weight, but that is often no bad thing. They were often tightly choked from the factory - easily opened up. Earlier ones are definitely better fitted and finished.

If you want a good side by side for not a lot of money and are not fussed about a British name don’t overlook an AYA.

Hello, Going back many years in the Shooting Times, Gough Thomas liked the AYA, I had a Yeoman, No 3 and 4 and the Game Keeper i knew bought the No 2 , Surprising how many are still in use and sell for not a lot of money

 

[harrygrey382]

Ejector vs Non Ejector

An ejector has two extra locks in the forend, barrels or action (depending on the design) that kick the cartridges out of the gun when you open it. Your loader would then pick up all the empties.

Ejectors add extra complexity. Some work well, some designs didn’t work so well.

A Non Ejector has a simple extractor that lifts the cartridges out of the breech. You then have to pull them out and put them in your pocket rather than scrabbling around in the dirt looking fir the empties that have been kicked put by the extractors. Of course you can learn a neat trick of catching the empties as they are kicked out.

If you can find a good boxlock non ejector don’t pass on it - they usually sell for little money but they can be really nice little guns.

I understand the function of ejectors vs extractors - I just am not sure how much I want them. I assumed I needed ejectors, but analysing it I’m probably not fussed. And AYA look good, but I want an English gun - just because.

Anyway, I’ve gone and done something a bit foolish… having decided on some form of Birmingham boxlock - the H&N most likely - I started getting sidelock FOMO, and a project gun fell into my lap. A London addressed Hollis & Sons, needs (quite a lot) of TLC but it’s mechanically in good order - locks up tight, sidelocks in good working order, 2 3/4” 1 1/4oz NP, smooth bores. But it needs a thorough clean/service and some serious love given to the butt stock. What the hell all the holes are for I’ve no idea but the seller swears it’s not cracked. For the money ($200 or 100GBP equivalent) I don’t mind if eventually I have the stock copied and I end up fitting a new one. It’s definitely got its faults, but I think the fundamentals are ok, even if it’s going to be a fair bit of work. So what do you think - just how much of a sucker am I? Oh and I also have a deal on a BSA in the pipeline to use in the meantime. My wife needs to hurry up and get back in the country (been away for 3 weeks) to curb my acquirings I think… going to need another safe - already have 11 rifles in a 5 gun unit, this will burst it

 

[Heym SR20]

Perfect project gun. Before you do anything grind up screwdrivers to fit all the screws. As you say its not worth much.

The holes on the wrist will be for metal plates that have been added to strengthen the wrist after a repair at some point. I would probably either reinstate such plates, or gently warm the wrist to soften the glues hoping it will all fall apart apart again and then rebuild it using a thin epoxy -( West System etc) with a good brass pin down through the hand and plug with little walnut plugs each screwhole. It will never look like a new stock, but that really doesn’t matter. It’s an old gun with lots of stories to tell.

Cost of a new stock is pretty prohibitive unless you are able to do the work.

I would measure the bores and wall dimensions, the 12 inside a diamond tells you that it was originally.729 bore (I think - check vintage guns - they have a definitive guide to proof marks and bore sizes).

The 1 1/4 oz proof and file cut rib suggests this is a heavier gun built either as a live pigeon competition gun or more for wildfowling.

 

[takbok]

Thomas Bland & Sons are nice guns

 

[harrygrey382]

Perfect project gun. Before you do anything grind up screwdrivers to fit all the screws. As you say its not worth much.

The holes on the wrist will be for metal plates that have been added to strengthen the wrist after a repair at some point. I would probably either reinstate such plates, or gently warm the wrist to soften the glues hoping it will all fall apart apart again and then rebuild it using a thin epoxy -( West System etc) with a good brass pin down through the hand and plug with little walnut plugs each screwhole. It will never look like a new stock, but that really doesn’t matter. It’s an old gun with lots of stories to tell.

Cost of a new stock is pretty prohibitive unless you are able to do the work.

I would measure the bores and wall dimensions, the 12 inside a diamond tells you that it was originally.729 bore (I think - check vintage guns - they have a definitive guide to proof marks and bore sizes).

The 1 1/4 oz proof and file cut rib suggests this is a heavier gun built either as a live pigeon competition gun or more for wildfowling.

Yes and around the holes there are witnesses marks from what looks like a metal patch. I wouldn’t reinstate them - that would be too in-your-face for me. But I don’t mind the idea of re-doing the repair. But I’ll still consider a restock, if I can get it roughly pantographed I can do the rest so cost wouldn’t be too bad.

But to tide me over, an acquaintance has hook me up with this poor-man’s-Purdy. It’s got almost 4000km to come so won’t be here for a couple of weeks probably, but looks pretty solid tidy. Should keep me out of trouble for the moment

 

[HistoricBore]

That is a fairly late BSA - does it have ejectors?

HB

 

[harrygrey382]

That is a fairly late BSA - does it have ejectors?

HB

Pretty sure it’s extractor. What makes you say it’s late?

 

[harrygrey382]

Here are the proofs - I’ve just been reading they introduced chamber length later on? This only has 1 1/4 oz

 

[Sika98k]

Here are the proofs - I’ve just been reading they introduced chamber length later on? This only has 1 1/4 oz

You can just make out 23/4” at 90 degrees to the nitro proof

 

[HistoricBore]

1 1/4 was the Heavy loading with 2 3/4" chambers. 1 1/8th was the normal game loading.
The serial numbers started at a very low number, and in the early days they (BSA) promised that they would not offer ejectors so as not to upset the 'proper' gunmakers - but later on they of course did have the option of Ejectors. For wildfowling ejectors were not deemed necessary, which is still the case I believe.

HB

 

[harrygrey382]

You can just make out 23/4” at 90 degrees to the nitro proof

Well spotted! So you’re right on it being later

1 1/4 was the Heavy loading with 2 3/4" chambers. 1 1/8th was the normal game loading.
The serial numbers started at a very low number, and in the early days they (BSA) promised that they would not offer ejectors so as not to upset the 'proper' gunmakers - but later on they of course did have the option of Ejectors. For wildfowling ejectors were not deemed necessary, which is still the case I believe.

HB

So you can get 1 1/8oz 2 3/4” guns? I assumed they were all 2 1/2”. Sadly this is still an extractor gun