6.5mm vs 7mm vs .30 cal

[Selous]

Over the years I have been fortunate to use a good few calibres for stalking, foxing and hunting abroad as well as range work. As many may know I have been using non- lead bullets for over 22 years and have found the Barnes TTSX bullets to be very effective. The majority of deer that I have shot over the years have been with either the good old reliable .308 (130g TTSX at 3000fps) or the 7mm Rem Mag (120g TTSX at 3300fps). I have also dabbled with the 6.5x47 with the 100g TTSX for the occasional roe but nothing frequent as I preferred other rifle configurations for stalking.
Over the last 2 months I have been using a 6.5x55 with the 120g TTSX at 3000fps. Since starting with the “new” 6.5 I have shot 11 deer (4 roe and 7 red deer). I have noticed that every chest shot deer has run on despite well placed shots, not by much- perhaps 20-50 yards, but enough to make me realise that it’s different to the .308 or 7mm, where I seldom see any run distances on roe and occasionally get a short run on reds. The red deer have also had quite a poor blood trail to follow despite well placed top of heart shots. The one bang- flop that I did have was an injured roe where the shot was quick and a tad high through both shoulder blades, grazing the bottom of the spine in the process. Now in all cases there were signs of good bullet expansion so I don’t hold that the bullets have pencilled, but the effect on deer, call it stopping power if you like, was noticeably less than I am accustomed to.
When comparing the muzzle energies the 6.5x55 is 2398ft-lbs, the .308 is 2598ft-lbs and the 7mm is 2902ft-lbs. Sure there is a difference but in reality not enough to make much of a difference. My shot placement hasn’t changed, top of the heart is normal for broadside shots. This leaves the main variable being frontal area. Now I accept that the difference between .264, .284 and .308 is small but perhaps there is a bigger difference when comparing the frontal area of the expanded projectile.
Now clearly the next 20 animals I shoot may be bang- flops to reset the averages but I am interested to hear if anyone else has noted a similar effect when moving between larger and smaller calibres, when the bullet design is kept as consistent as possible?

 

[moeggesit]

Yes, there is a definite difference, .223 will do the job up to fallow size but they walk a fair distance, .243 better but they still walk a distance, once you get to 7mm, I can’t tell much difference between 7mm and 308 or larger (depending on species). Roe specifically, can’t tell the difference.

 

[DRN]

Every red I've shot with my 6.5 creed (which is only 5) have dropped on the spot.
Im using yew trees both the reg and tlr.
They are different to barnes though, they fragment.
Shot distance has been 75 to 200m and muzzle velocity a shade over 3000fps. All chest shot.

 

[sauer]

Ill throw velocity into the mix
And my non scientific explanation of hammer effect
My .25-06 just drops deer thru fold and reaction sometimes after years of using one still sometimes makes me give a wee wow !

I think that hammer/ shock effect with velocity does a lot and some slower calibres aren't same but often make up with it in mass (.308)

Paul

 

[Keith Edmunds]

I think it's easy to get too scientific as there are far too many variables with every shot. I've had muntjac run further than fallow shot in the same place with the same bullet - be it .243, .270, 6.5cm or .308. The individual deer's nervous/mental state at the time of the shot probably matters as much as whether it was hit with a .243 or a .308.

 

[HonestJohn]

I have said on here for years that based on the reasonably large qty of deer I’ve shot with a 6.5x55 (several hundreds of both red and roe), it creates dead runs. I’ve shot it for over 25 years now I suspect, along with dozens of other cals and chamberings.

The 6.5 swede with factory ammo, esp US, is anaemic at best. European ammo is better. Home loads is the best. Short barrels is a no no, min. 22” imho, it needs all it can get!

Heavy bullets like the 156g is your worst enemy, for anything above 50yds. The norma Vulkan 156g is a great stopper at short range, shot the Vulkan for probably 20 years along with others of course - however, the 140g Vulkan was excellent and as was a home loads with 140g partitions.

With copper, I have explored sellior and bellot, fox, Sako powerhead blade, Norma ecostrike, gecko.

I have been disappointed with performance in all but Sako and Fox. The Sako being by a good margin the better performer, both in terminal performance, penetration, and grouping. But the fox is good, and available locally, so will shoot another 50-100 reds this year and see what the end of year decision is vs the powerhead blade.

I definitely have found that with the swede and copper, keep it well under 200yds if you can! And don’t shoot it behind the leg in the heat/lungs, but through the front of the shoulder halfway up

 

[Scipio]

Ill throw velocity into the mix
And my non scientific explanation of hammer effect
My .25-06 just drops deer thru fold and reaction sometimes after years of using one still sometimes makes me give a wee wow !

I think that hammer/ shock effect with velocity does a lot and some slower calibres aren't same but often make up with it in mass (.308)

Paul

An interesting thesis @sauer , and i do think you might be onto something with the speed vs mass relation being of some importance here Nathan Foster i believe also has some similar thoughts: Effective Game Killing

But trying to get a bit more into this theory, may i ask about your:

- Typical muzzle velocity:
-Estimated terminal velocity (if we say that an average bullet slows about 250 fps/100 yards):
-Bullet weight and type:
- Typical shot placement:
-Typical terminal performance:

And @Selous thank you for bringing up some interesting observations, especially as many of us have 6.5,s and already are, or are about to use non lead ammo in them .-)

From your earlier post, would it be right to say, this about your typical 6.5 experience and use:
- Caliber: 6.5
- Typical muzzle velocity: circa 3000 fps
-Estimated terminal velocity: (if we say that an average bullet slows about 250 fps per 100 yards of flight) and
- Bullet weight and type: 120 ttsx
- Typical shot placement: Broad side, Top of the heart (correct?)
- Typical terminal performance: "..noticed that every chest shot deer has run on despite well placed shots, not by much- perhaps 20-50 yards...."



One thing that is quickly noticeable, is that your 6.5 ammo at 120 grn has a higher SD than what you typically shoot in your 308 and 7mm. That could, if you didnt hit hard matter, in theory mean that the bullet would have difficulty in expanding enough vs the lower SD'ed and similarly, or quicker, going 7 and 30 cal bullets. But you say the expansion of he 6.5 seems fine, so
Is your top of the heart palcement typically more or less centrally over the heart, or perhap a towards the back it or ahead ?

 

[Ronin]

I never noticed the difference bettween 6.5 mm and 7mm when I soley used GS Custom HV

Now I do notice - shot placement is (like yours) the same

Dropping on the spot or running 20/50 yards is what has altered

That may not be an issue to some but in certain areas for me that turns into a wet recovery

I’ve tried a variety of manufacturers (I only home load) and some bullets are phenomenally accurate to the extent I’d happily use in national level competition

However that is not transposed to terminal performance

I can only compare like you to twenty years worth of experience of using GS C - nothing I’ve used so far provides the terminal performance offered by them

 

[ejg]

In the last 25 years (with cup core) I noticed 30 cal just drops deer with more authority than than 6mm/6.5mm. Bullet selection was more critical with the small calibre's I thought. A few weeks ago, a friend came over to start tests on a new fragmenting mono bullet design. Using a 6.5CM they shot Fallow/Sika stags between 100 and 500m with very good results. The good thing about mono metal bullets is that every tom dick & harry can make bullets and also bring in new theories/designs. I recon we will see a lot of new bullet manufacturers appearing.
edi

 

[Scipio]

I have said on here for years that based on the reasonably large qty of deer I’ve shot with a 6.5x55 (several hundreds of both red and roe), it creates dead runs. I’ve shot it for over 25 years now I suspect, along with dozens of other cals and chamberings.

The 6.5 swede with factory ammo, esp US, is anaemic at best. European ammo is better. Home loads is the best. Short barrels is a no no, min. 22” imho, it needs all it can get!

Heavy bullets like the 156g is your worst enemy, for anything above 50yds. The norma Vulkan 156g is a great stopper at short range, shot the Vulkan for probably 20 years along with others of course - however, the 140g Vulkan was excellent and as was a home loads with 140g partitions.

With copper, I have explored sellior and bellot, fox, Sako powerhead blade, Norma ecostrike, gecko.

I have been disappointed with performance in all but Sako and Fox. The Sako being by a good margin the better performer, both in terminal performance, penetration, and grouping. But the fox is good, and available locally, so will shoot another 50-100 reds this year and see what the end of year decision is vs the powerhead blade.

I definitely have found that with the swede and copper, keep it well under 200yds if you can! And don’t shoot it behind the leg in the heat/lungs, but through the front of the shoulder halfway up

Some good emperical input, thank you - but just to clarify, do you mean where white "terminal triangle and dot" is in the picture below, or do you mean in the middle of the shoulderblade, as a high shoulder shot ?

 

[HonestJohn]

I never noticed the difference bettween 6.5 mm and 7mm when I soley used GS Custom HV

Now I do notice - shot placement is (like yours) the same

Dropping on the spot or running 20/50 yards is what has altered

That may not be an issue to some but in certain areas for me that turns into a wet recovery

I’ve tried a variety of manufacturers (I only home load) and some bullets are phenomenally accurate to the extent I’d happily use in national level competition

However that is not transposed to terminal performance

I can only compare like you to twenty years worth of experience of using GS C - nothing I’ve used so far provides the terminal performance offered by them

Were they not a target bullet only? I thought they went defunct

 

[HonestJohn]

Some good emperical input, thank you - but just to clarify, at least for me, not being a first language english speaker, when you say "behind the shoulder" do you then mean in the white "terminal triangle" og just behind it, where the lung/heart/ribs tissue is?
View attachment 437286

Inside the white triangle indeed , and ideally toward the left side - autonomic plexus essentially - not a classic ‘slip one in behind the shoulder, which is in the crease line giving entry to the heart lungs without touching the shoulder

 

[Scipio]

Inside the white triangle indeed , and ideally toward the left side - autonomic plexus essentially - not a classic ‘slip one in behind the shoulder, which is in the crease line giving entry to the heart lungs without touching the shoulder

Cheers @triggertrix , the hilar shot then

 

[HonestJohn]

Cheers @triggertrix , the hilar shot then

korrekt

 

[wildfowler.250]

Over the years I have been fortunate to use a good few calibres for stalking, foxing and hunting abroad as well as range work. As many may know I have been using non- lead bullets for over 22 years and have found the Barnes TTSX bullets to be very effective. The majority of deer that I have shot over the years have been with either the good old reliable .308 (130g TTSX at 3000fps) or the 7mm Rem Mag (120g TTSX at 3300fps). I have also dabbled with the 6.5x47 with the 100g TTSX for the occasional roe but nothing frequent as I preferred other rifle configurations for stalking.
Over the last 2 months I have been using a 6.5x55 with the 120g TTSX at 3000fps. Since starting with the “new” 6.5 I have shot 11 deer (4 roe and 7 red deer). I have noticed that every chest shot deer has run on despite well placed shots, not by much- perhaps 20-50 yards, but enough to make me realise that it’s different to the .308 or 7mm, where I seldom see any run distances on roe and occasionally get a short run on reds. The red deer have also had quite a poor blood trail to follow despite well placed top of heart shots. The one bang- flop that I did have was an injured roe where the shot was quick and a tad high through both shoulder blades, grazing the bottom of the spine in the process. Now in all cases there were signs of good bullet expansion so I don’t hold that the bullets have pencilled, but the effect on deer, call it stopping power if you like, was noticeably less than I am accustomed to.
When comparing the muzzle energies the 6.5x55 is 2398ft-lbs, the .308 is 2598ft-lbs and the 7mm is 2902ft-lbs. Sure there is a difference but in reality not enough to make much of a difference. My shot placement hasn’t changed, top of the heart is normal for broadside shots. This leaves the main variable being frontal area. Now I accept that the difference between .264, .284 and .308 is small but perhaps there is a bigger difference when comparing the frontal area of the expanded projectile.
Now clearly the next 20 animals I shoot may be bang- flops to reset the averages but I am interested to hear if anyone else has noted a similar effect when moving between larger and smaller calibres, when the bullet design is kept as consistent as possible?

I find these posts interesting. I have to say I find even roe with the .222 in lead, they don’t tend to go 50 yards - but some will run a bit. A lot do drop on the e spot. I do think there’s a tendency for non lead to zip through. Possibly more so with large cals and small/thin deer.

I still haven’t seen the right answer in copper. Some seem to zip through and the TLRs ect have reports of being messy

 

[Ronin]

Were they not a target bullet only? I thought they went defunct

No - there were some target specific bullets (the SP)

But the HV range was specifically designed to expand on animals - primarily African game where Gerald Shultz originated from

His daughter moved to the states after getting married and was going to start production there but supply never really got going

European production was done under licence from Tiemens’s and Tiemens in Netherlands but due to strict tolerances that production ceased a few years ago

I used the 95, 110 and 130 grain HV in 6.5 and 7mm extensively (several thousnad bullets) from both SA and NL source and found no difference in terminal ballistics or tolerances

It’s a real shame they have ceased production as they were the panacea of solids

 

[75]

Interesting observations.

I exclusively shot 6.5s for a good few years - 260 and then 6.5x284 with a range of lead free bullets. GS Customs for a while (mainly 260 and mainly roe to be fair) and TTSX. Last year I added a 308 also running TTSX. Shot placement is towards the front of the white triangle as above.

Honestly, I rarely get a bang-flop on reds with any of them but maybe that's semantics?!

I shot a stag a couple of weeks ago and very typical reaction for me - staggering in a half circle for a few paces and then dropped after about 3 seconds. Didn't really run as such and probably only moved 10 yards but didn't instantly drop (like you'd expect on a headshot). Top of heart completely destroyed and good (but short!) blood trail when I got there. But I rarely get that instant, drop-on-the-spot with chest shots even with 308 but nor do I get them running far either (unless it's a poor shot placement).

Could i tell the difference between 6.5-284 and 308 by shot reaction alone? Hmmm, not sure to be honest - I suspect there are more external factors at play than simply sectional density / ballistics? Alertness of deer, exact position of impact and wound channel, distance of shot, size of deer?

 

[eldon]

@Selous please share your .308 130ttsx load and barrel length?
When I do start using copper this sounds like a good starting point.

 

[Jagged77]

@Selous please share your .308 130ttsx load and barrel length?
When I do start using copper this sounds like a good starting point.

It really is excellent. 18” barrel N135, you’ll find a good spot between 45 and 47gr. My 18” barrel is producing a mv of 2950fps

 

[Selous]

An interesting thesis @sauer , and i do think you might be onto something with the speed vs mass relation being of some importance here Nathan Foster i believe also has some similar thoughts: Effective Game Killing

But trying to get a bit more into this theory, may i ask about your:

- Typical muzzle velocity:
-Estimated terminal velocity (if we say that an average bullet slows about 250 fps/100 yards):
-Bullet weight and type:
- Typical shot placement:
-Typical terminal performance:

And @Selous thank you for bringing up some interesting observations, especially as many of us have 6.5,s and already are, or are about to use non lead ammo in them .-)

From your earlier post, would it be right to say, this about your typical 6.5 experience and use:
- Caliber: 6.5
- Typical muzzle velocity: circa 3000 fps
-Estimated terminal velocity: (if we say that an average bullet slows about 250 fps per 100 yards of flight) and
- Bullet weight and type: 120 ttsx
- Typical shot placement: Broad side, Top of the heart (correct?)
- Typical terminal performance: "..noticed that every chest shot deer has run on despite well placed shots, not by much- perhaps 20-50 yards...."



One thing that is quickly noticeable, is that your 6.5 ammo at 120 grn has a higher SD than what you typically shoot in your 308 and 7mm. That could, if you didnt hit hard matter, in theory mean that the bullet would have difficulty in expanding enough vs the lower SD'ed and similarly, or quicker, going 7 and 30 cal bullets. But you say the expansion of he 6.5 seems fine, so
Is your top of the heart palcement typically more or less centrally over the heart, or perhap a towards the back it or ahead ?

Judging by the exit wounds expansion has not been a problem, I should have measured the off side chest exit wound but haven’t done so. I would estimate 1 inch to 1.25 inch diameter. I have just taken two reds to the game dealer and I noticed the exit wounds on one side was bullet shaped suggesting it had possibly flipped round, a known consequence of long shanks on expanded bullets. Terminal velocity would be around 2500fps, enough to ensure proper expansion. According to Nathan Fosters thoughts also enough to cause hydrostatic shock, whatever that may be.