223 or 6.5crmr

[Karhumies]

Look up Backfire on You Tube - the debate on which calibre/rifle, though fun, is endless…

i know the channel. I know wich rifle i want, its not the "best" for the job, that would be something like the tikka ACE game wich also comes in 22-250, 270, 6mm PRC you name it. But iam a big boy that wants a big toy and the tikka t3x tact a1 has the cool and fun factor for me despite its almost unpractical weight. If someone told me it was some kind of .50 cal i would almost believe them.

as for calibre, tho endless there is merit to discussing it when it comes to pushing beyond normal hunting i think.

223 is not really any cheaper than 6.5 tho when it comes to handloading unless we get stingy on a few grains of powder. The premium bullets mostly cost the same for any conventional calibre nowadays or the difference is negligible unless you regularly put hundreds of rounds downrange. Anything i can handload for under 2 euro a shot is normal priced for me. A box of cheap 223 meant for assault rifles costs maybe 35 euro per 50, a box of Sako target ammo costs maybe 60 and lapua match ammo is over 2 euro a piece regardless of calibre. I pay the same for 30-06 and less for 6.5x55.

Our ammo economy is weird like that.

So i expect to pay average 1,50 per triggerpull for any serious shooting that isnt pointing my AK at a siluette and exclaiming leroy jenkins. Wether 308, 30-06, 6.5x55, 223 or 6.5crmr. My 243 being the exeption, factory ammo for it costs 120 euro a box....

So the only factor for me here is wich of the 2 cartridges will suit my shooting best. So far it seems like 223 doesnt really hold any advantage over 6.5 creedmoor other than being less overkill wich is also far less relevant than its often made out to be. i have shot rabbits with a 30-06 and had a decent meal from them. I dont eat the head anyway.

 

[Karhumies]

I think you are correct with monolithics. I have shot plenty of Roe with my 223 and the 51gn VLR4 (mine is a 1 in 12” twist), from close out a bit under 200m and they penetrate right through both shoulders of a Roe buck, and they drop on the spot or just after a few yards.

yea figured as mutch. I see Similar results with 308 on moose, guys shooting 180gr lead find a rib shot lodged into the oposite rib(still a good kill ofcourse) but fox classic hunter makes a clean channel on a quartering shot straight trough the front shoulder. With 223 it would matter more because 22 already struggles with penetration.

 

[andyk]

Andy,

But what are you actually comparing ? BC, bullet weight, bullet velocity, or a combination ?

To get a true "BC" performance comparison, would you not to have two bullets of the same weight, and velocity, but with different BC's ?

I suppose what I was looking to illustrate is some real world differences.

I worked up loads with both of those bullets, and both shoot well and showed those velocities as being about the top of what I thought I could sensibly achieve (and which give sensible 222 muzzle energies).

Deciding between the two, I compared the ballistics and went with the 73 ELD as it showed real benefits over the 65 GK.

 

[Hambone]

i know the channel. I know wich rifle i want, its not the "best" for the job, that would be something like the tikka ACE game wich also comes in 22-250, 270, 6mm PRC you name it. But iam a big boy that wants a big toy and the tikka t3x tact a1 has the cool and fun factor for me despite its almost unpractical weight. If someone told me it was some kind of .50 cal i would almost believe them.

as for calibre, tho endless there is merit to discussing it when it comes to pushing beyond normal hunting i think.

223 is not really any cheaper than 6.5 tho when it comes to handloading unless we get stingy on a few grains of powder. The premium bullets mostly cost the same for any conventional calibre nowadays or the difference is negligible unless you regularly put hundreds of rounds downrange. Anything i can handload for under 2 euro a shot is normal priced for me. A box of cheap 223 meant for assault rifles costs maybe 35 euro per 50, a box of Sako target ammo costs maybe 60 and lapua match ammo is over 2 euro a piece regardless of calibre. I pay the same for 30-06 and less for 6.5x55.

Our ammo economy is weird like that.

So i expect to pay average 1,50 per triggerpull for any serious shooting that isnt pointing my AK at a siluette and exclaiming leroy jenkins. Wether 308, 30-06, 6.5x55, 223 or 6.5crmr. My 243 being the exeption, factory ammo for it costs 120 euro a box....

So the only factor for me here is wich of the 2 cartridges will suit my shooting best. So far it seems like 223 doesnt really hold any advantage over 6.5 creedmoor other than being less overkill wich is also far less relevant than its often made out to be. i have shot rabbits with a 30-06 and had a decent meal from them. I dont eat the head anyway.

.257 Weatherby Magnum..... Think that will meet your criteria.

 

[Karhumies]

.257 Weatherby Magnum..... Think that will meet your criteria.

I almost got my hands on a sauer weatherby in 6.5x68RWS but it sold under my nose

 

[Hambone]

I almost got my hands on a sauer weatherby in 6.5x68RWS but it sold under my nose

Gutted

 

[Karhumies]

Gutted

yea, this was a while ago. I looked all over for a similar rifle but to no avail. Nothing to be found unless i go up in budget to slightly used car level and order a custom from germany or austria. Just not worth it unfortunately

 

[Karhumies]

nah but realistically (altho i would have totally bought the weatherby) the options are 6.5crmr or 223 both 1:8 twist, both 24" barrel, both in a PRS chassis. Other than price for cheap fodder wich i am unlikely to use anyway it so far seems the creedmoor has every advantage doesnt it? exept maybe varmint bullets but i dont use those mutch.

In all likelyhood i will use peregrines. If those dont work out il run trough other premium stuff.

 

[Hambone]

6.5 Creedmoor is maybe flavour of the month but lets be honest if you already had a 6.5x55 (especially if you reload) would you bother to change? I wouldn't.
As for .223 in the scenario that you pictured go .22/250 and not mess about with any other .22

 

[Karhumies]

6.5 Creedmoor is maybe flavour of the month but lets be honest if you already had a 6.5x55 (especially if you reload) would you bother to change? I wouldn't.
As for .223 in the scenario that you pictured go .22/250 and not mess about with any other .22

the 22-250 is only available in a 1:14 twist in rifles i like however. Limits bullet options i imagine. As for creedmoor, i dont care for the hype, always thought the OG swede was more fun but the rifle iam wanting only comes in 308, 223 and 6.5. Unless i get the new tikka ace game but that one has a 1:14 twist for the 22-250 (otherwise i wouldnt even have brought this topic up, clear choise if that one came in a faster twist)

 

[Hambone]

Sure I read on here in the last few days that Fox bullets stabilise in slow twist barrels. Maybe not so helpful in your location though.

 

[Tulloch]

So I have both and they are both very different calibers so it can't be a comparison .

6.5 creedmoor is stupid accurate , silly easy to load for and due to high BC bullets good for long range and low recoil .

The .223 cheap and easy to load for and is consistent but legally you can shoot any deer in the UK with 6.5 creed you can't with .223

 

[Karhumies]

Sure I read on here in the last few days that Fox bullets stabilise in slow twist barrels. Maybe not so helpful in your location though.

I use them in my 6.5x55. Thats my everyday rifle for normal hunting. I am really trying to set up something specialised now. Wouldnt take an all metal chassis rifle on a normal forest stalk.

 

[Hambone]

I use them in my 6.5x55. Thats my everyday rifle for normal hunting. I am really trying to set up something specialised now. Wouldnt take an all metal chassis rifle on a normal forest stalk.

The World is your Oyster...

 

[Karhumies]

So I have both and they are both very different calibers so it can't be a comparison .

6.5 creedmoor is stupid accurate , silly easy to load for and due to high BC bullets good for long range and low recoil .

The .223 cheap and easy to load for and is consistent but legally you can shoot any deer in the UK with 6.5 creed you can't with .223

not comparable in general no, but as applied to a specific task anything can be compared. I am leaning more and more towards the 6.5 creedmoor for the accuracy and versatility at the moment. bur the main question is wich one has the edge for shooting small targets over longer than nornal distances in a hunting setting. The option of shooting deer would be nice tho. I dont know exactly wether its legal on larger deer here. Conventionally not, but our law is not based on cartridge but on the bullet weight and energy of the particular load. I dont know what the max is on 223. Wouldnt pick it for deer tho

 

[Tulloch]

not comparable in general no, but as applied to a specific task anything can be compared. I am leaning more and more towards the 6.5 creedmoor for the accuracy and versatility at the moment. bur the main question is wich one has the edge for shooting small targets over longer than nornal distances in a hunting setting. The option of shooting deer would be nice tho. I dont know exactly wether its legal on larger deer here. Conventionally not, but our law is not based on cartridge but on the bullet weight and energy of the particular load. I dont know what the max is on 223. Wouldnt pick it for deer tho

The 6.5

 

[Radstorm]

I bought a Tikka Tac A1 .223 12 months ago - it’s a very nice rifle, accurate and I am yet to really start hand loading for it - but at present 1MOA rifle all day with various factory ammo. Shot it out to 600m on steel target. It hits it but there is no authority like a .308 but the point is hitting it so doesn’t matter ?

Your last post mentions you need a certain bullet weight and energy for deer - this may decide for you what calibre.

Interestingly when I needed / wanted a less tactical rifle I can put the action on a PSE stock, add a magazine spring and factory bottom metal and standard magazine and it works great too - just a heavy barrel bolt action rifle.

So maybe another option is a chassis system rifle and a choice of stocks.

I also have a tikka .260 - great too - but not factory barrel. No factory ammo in UK so have to reload for it which is a pain. (Little choice of factory ammo)

 

[Mungo]

Iam doing better financially again and i have decided that i want to get a Tikka t3x tact A1. I have classic style rifles, I have Kalashnikov, I have a drilling, i have 2 shotguns, i have pretty mutch all i need at normal hunting ranges.

First: a T3 is a T3. It doesn’t really matter which particular flavour you get - the barrels and actions are all the same. So why restrict yourself to the A1, which limits your calibre options.

I’d instead start with the calibre choice, get whichever t3 comes in that calibre, then customise it. That’s the beauty of T3s - they are endlessly customisable.

6.5 isn’t really a hare shooting calibre. I have done it, quite a lot, out to about 300m. It works, but it seems like absurdly unnecessary overkill, and the trajectory is quite unforgiving at longer range.

I would get a hot .22 centrefire for the specific application you mention: .22-250, .22BR, .22ARC, .22 Creedmoor. I got a .22ARC in part for precisely this: shooting hares at longer ranges. It is perfect for the job.

 

[Kevgun]

I have one in 6.5CM and a 22.250 in a Tac A1 chassis with a 26 inch fast twist barrel, which is absolutely stonking with 77gr TMks, I also have a Tikka T3X CTR .223 with a 24 inch 1:8 twist barrel, which I use on Rabbits for long range pest control, I help A mate who does Rabbit control for a Living, and it goes like this, 1st phase get in with ferrets, then at night after Ferreting shoot remaining rabbits, because they are reluctant to return to their warren/ burrows straight after ferreting, we normally shoot with FAC air rifles first, then return over the next 2 nights and use a combo of FAC air , then .223 once they become to wary of the IR and proximity, I have no problem shooting them @300 yards with a 223 with 40 gr Vmax

 

[Karhumies]

I bought a Tikka Tac A1 .223 12 months ago - it’s a very nice rifle, accurate and I am yet to really start hand loading for it - but at present 1MOA rifle all day with various factory ammo. Shot it out to 600m on steel target. It hits it but there is no authority like a .308 but the point is hitting it so doesn’t matter ?

Your last post mentions you need a certain bullet weight and energy for deer - this may decide for you what calibre.

Interestingly when I needed / wanted a less tactical rifle I can put the action on a PSE stock, add a magazine spring and factory bottom metal and standard magazine and it works great too - just a heavy barrel bolt action rifle.

So maybe another option is a chassis system rifle and a choice of stocks.

I also have a tikka .260 - great too - but not factory barrel. No factory ammo in UK so have to reload for it which is a pain. (Little choice of factory ammo)

For deer i would need 100gr and a specific amount of energy i would have to look up, conventional wisdom is .243 and up. Its not a point iam considering tho, more a bonus point, as mentioned i have 6.5, .308, 9.3mm plenty to choose from.

The authority of the hit only matters in the sense that it should be able to kill a 2-20 kilo critter at any range i may shoot wich is realistically never going to be mutch past 400m, max maybe 500-600 after a few years of practise and even then maybe once or twice a year. The stock thing is useful, reason iam set on a tac A1 is that i actually want that exact stock. It is within my skill set to make a wooden stock if i wished it.

As for rhe 260, grear round iam sure, since after long deliveration with my American friends its basically a slow twist swede in a modern action for all intends and purposes, i routinely load the swede to arouns 58.000 psi in my CZ550 with no ill effect and the power of that load is pretty scary to behold on gel. from 100m wity a fox classic hunter 123gr i get 920mm of penetration and the gel tears from the cavity.