Bulging Neck...!

My previous trip grunting was going on with a spiker coming back home, the trail cam has pinged a buck moving past but a tad out of range (in the early hours) to work what he was like, weather has swung to the West so juggling a bit of dry time (at the right time) is high on the list.
Half way to the ground, black sky's and driving rain! Has Sara Keith-Lucas (BBC East) weather girl spun a tale!
A few miles to go and the sky was clearing the saying I have followed for a long time is "rain stops deer come out" but this time the usually busy part was very quiet, the west wind is not the best but 2 seats around 200 yds apart gives me a bit more choice.
Muntjac and Cock pheasant's were doing their thing, then a a couple of does ran past and back again followed by this lad, then again but this time he came to a halt with my best bahh
Not a big animal a tad stinky with his flanks hollow from not eating as the field gralloch was good but the usual large main gut was empty, still lots of fat but he was in need of sex not food!
Once loaded I parked the truck at the top of the track for a coffee and a listen, grunting from the distance so perhaps that explained why it was a tad slow, but one more less which is why I go.

 

[Mike1979]

Take a very basic population model for fallow, working on the assumption of 80% female, which has been shown to be typical in the large fallow herds in the south and east, from various drone surveys and confirmed by Ben Harrower at the FC Worcester mtg.

View attachment 443100

From a herd of 100, if you cull 46 each year (which obviously is a lot to ask), 23 bucks and 23 does, the number after 5 years is much the same; 18 bucks and 28 does, the overall number has dropped and the percentage does has dropped; 28 bucks and 18 does, the number has risen and the percentage does has risen. So obviously taking bucks does contribute to the overall number but nowhere near as much as taking does.

So in @wytonpjs's video - along with the comment that one shot and they're all sitting in a neighbouring sanctuary (all too familiar a situation) - why whack a buck now, rather than let them be settled and stick it to the does in 10 days time? In those situations, every buck you shoot makes taking the next doe more difficult. Well, that has been the experience around here, where the number/density of fallow have been very similar to those in the video clip.

So, if reducing the numbers is really the objective, then shooting a buck now can be counter-productive. If, on the other hand, the objective is to scare them away, then fair dos. And realistically, without a really good take up of co-operating landowners over a large area, that's pretty much the best one can hope for.

I am fiercely anti the BDS's campaign that seems to suggest that deer are being seen as vermin because that sends the message that culling deer is wrong. How can that be in the best interests of and welfare of deer. Equally, Dominic Griffith's BDS article that effectively said that the fallow deer problem is now so difficult to deal with that we might as well roll over and love the deer, was utterly shocking.

We need to take the fallow situation seriously yet, they are still wild deer, it's not their fault and we ought to treat them with a little respect.

I am all for whacking as many as possible to try and keep them in check but with a bit of discretion, we can make our efforts a lot more effective.

Dont disagree with the logic but not sure how shooting a buck now rather then in a months time has any impact on "respect" for the deer. Im sure we all value the deer that we have the privilege to shoot but letting him have a couple of weeks to get his leg over then shooting him is no more or less respectful then shooting him now. Just my opinion

 

[imnotrucknut]

Take a very basic population model for fallow, working on the assumption of 80% female, which has been shown to be typical in the large fallow herds in the south and east, from various drone surveys and confirmed by Ben Harrower at the FC Worcester mtg.

View attachment 443100

From a herd of 100, if you cull 46 each year (which obviously is a lot to ask), 23 bucks and 23 does, the number after 5 years is much the same; 18 bucks and 28 does, the overall number has dropped and the percentage does has dropped; 28 bucks and 18 does, the number has risen and the percentage does has risen. So obviously taking bucks does contribute to the overall number but nowhere near as much as taking does.

So in @wytonpjs's video - along with the comment that one shot and they're all sitting in a neighbouring sanctuary (all too familiar a situation) - why whack a buck now, rather than let them be settled and stick it to the does in 10 days time? In those situations, every buck you shoot makes taking the next doe more difficult. Well, that has been the experience around here, where the number/density of fallow have been very similar to those in the video clip.

So, if reducing the numbers is really the objective, then shooting a buck now can be counter-productive. If, on the other hand, the objective is to scare them away, then fair dos. And realistically, without a really good take up of co-operating landowners over a large area, that's pretty much the best one can hope for.

I am fiercely anti the BDS's campaign that seems to suggest that deer are being seen as vermin because that sends the message that culling deer is wrong. How can that be in the best interests of and welfare of deer. Equally, Dominic Griffith's BDS article that effectively said that the fallow deer problem is now so difficult to deal with that we might as well roll over and love the deer, was utterly shocking.

We need to take the fallow situation seriously yet, they are still wild deer, it's not their fault and we ought to treat them with a little respect.

I am all for whacking as many as possible to try and keep them in check but with a bit of discretion, we can make our efforts a lot more effective.

The module suggests reducing the female cull and increasing the male cull obviously population will increase.
My point is maintain the female cull but by shooting males additionally and when they present will help overall.
Regards

 

[Ratel]

The module suggests reducing the female cull and increasing the male cull obviously population will increase.
My point is maintain the female cull but by shooting males additionally and when they present will help overall.
Regards

Agree to a certain point but we shoot a few males up until October. Then it's full on females until the end of March. We then have a month to tidy up the males which we do on the basis of poor bucks and any injured animals, does included in the injured.

 

[GBR66]

I find it so depressing that this class of buck gets shot at this time (and given a write-up) in the name of reducing numbers.

I would class that as a cull buck (better end of) around here.

 

[Tim.243]

Take a very basic population model for fallow, working on the assumption of 80% female, which has been shown to be typical in the large fallow herds in the south and east, from various drone surveys and confirmed by Ben Harrower at the FC Worcester mtg.

View attachment 443100

From a herd of 100, if you cull 46 each year (which obviously is a lot to ask), 23 bucks and 23 does, the number after 5 years is much the same; 18 bucks and 28 does, the overall number has dropped and the percentage does has dropped; 28 bucks and 18 does, the number has risen and the percentage does has risen. So obviously taking bucks does contribute to the overall number but nowhere near as much as taking does.

So in @wytonpjs's video - along with the comment that one shot and they're all sitting in a neighbouring sanctuary (all too familiar a situation) - why whack a buck now, rather than let them be settled and stick it to the does in 10 days time? In those situations, every buck you shoot makes taking the next doe more difficult. Well, that has been the experience around here, where the number/density of fallow have been very similar to those in the video clip.

So, if reducing the numbers is really the objective, then shooting a buck now can be counter-productive. If, on the other hand, the objective is to scare them away, then fair dos. And realistically, without a really good take up of co-operating landowners over a large area, that's pretty much the best one can hope for.

I am fiercely anti the BDS's campaign that seems to suggest that deer are being seen as vermin because that sends the message that culling deer is wrong. How can that be in the best interests of and welfare of deer. Equally, Dominic Griffith's BDS article that effectively said that the fallow deer problem is now so difficult to deal with that we might as well roll over and love the deer, was utterly shocking.

We need to take the fallow situation seriously yet, they are still wild deer, it's not their fault and we ought to treat them with a little respect.

I am all for whacking as many as possible to try and keep them in check but with a bit of discretion, we can make our efforts a lot more effective.

Further to this post
Deer live for these few weeks and with the herd spp, I think it is disrespectful to them as wild deer not to let them do their thing.

If you think the genes in this "buck" should have been passed on then you need to clean what ever screen you are looking at.

 

[imnotrucknut]

Agree to a certain point but we shoot a few males up until October. Then it's full on females until the end of March. We then have a month to tidy up the males which we do on the basis of poor bucks and any injured animals, does included in the injured.

Wouldnt you be better taking the poorer males before the rut?
Regards

 

[Leec6.5]

Wouldnt you be better taking the poorer males before the rut?
Regards

Sometimes those males might be heading away like most her species are before the rut, if they’re not on your ground, not a lot you can do until they cross the boundary

 

[imnotrucknut]

I was thinking from August onwards.
Regards

 

[Ratel]

Wouldnt you be better taking the poorer males before the rut?
Regards

In answer to that, I'm afraid the herds don't necesary gather in formations like that and we tend to shoot any pricket or injured/poor buck that breaks ranks. Usually a second shot is not on because the ones that sometimes come back for a look are usually does. It's extremely difficult sometimes on large flattish fields to get a second go with a backstop. Hope that explains it.

 

[Leec6.5]

In answer to that, I'm afraid the herds don't necesary gather in formations like that and we tend to shoot any pricket or injured/poor buck that breaks ranks. Usually a second shot is not on because the ones that sometimes come back for a look are usually does. It's extremely difficult sometimes on large flattish fields to get a second go with a backstop. Hope that explains it.

I feel your pain, been there many many times on reds, in a situation similar to that if you’ve got a bit of a dip or the benefit of a high seat is shoot the lead hind usually they will will ball up and then it’s a matter of just shooting them as they bare a shoulder, done that two or three times on red deer it’s not advisable it also works on males if you can find a group of bachelor stags or bucks, then I would aim for the lead or biggest buck then fingers crossed they will ball up and you have a chance of filling your boots

 

[Ratel]

I feel your pain, been there many many times on reds, in a situation similar to that if you’ve got a bit of a dip or the benefit of a high seat is shoot the lead hind usually they will will ball up and then it’s a matter of just shooting them as they bare a shoulder, done that two or three times on red deer it’s not advisable it also works on males if you can find a group of bachelor stags or bucks, then I would aim for the lead or biggest buck then fingers crossed they will ball up and you have a chance of filling your boots

Totally agree with you, but the ones round here have read all the stalking books and looked at the SD. They even listen to my phone I think. When they ball up it's usually a tight knot of bodies with heads and necks weaving about at 200+. I ban headshots unless under 50 yds and necks at less than 100 yds. Those are my rules and are strictly applied. Have had some luck when in range but still body shot them then. Just off for a mooch and watch the big boys on the pull.

 

[Leec6.5]

The is a proper FCB of a situation

(I describe FCB as a bit of a situation, but with more crucial language that if I do put it as intended I will almost certainly earn myself another ban)

 

[paulbshooting]

The problem is when you’re surrounded on all sides and there’s you Billy no mates stuck in the middle, you see a Deer you shoot it because next door will shoot it!

Absolutely no point in trying to manage fallow or red Deer, unless you are on a massive estate where the Deer are resident!

Little scraps of land here and there the Deer are transient, here today gone tomorrow so you capitalise on what you can when you can, so moaning about quality head, which is not, it’s really irrelevant

Exactly this. We have only seen a recovery in the local wild fallow bucks since all neighbours agreed to let them be after a problematic lease holder left. Five years on and some decent bucks about again.

 

[Mike1979]

The is a proper FCB of a situation

(I describe FCB as a bit of a situation, but with more crucial language that if I do put it as intended I will almost certainly earn myself another ban)

Lee...please dont take this the wrong way...I think in general that when you give your opinion you cause offence and you care not. This is to be applauded...unless you take offence easily in which case I imagine people weep in private recalling what you said

I am thick...and thick skinned and find it most amusing...but I'm just special...and maybe should engage brain before mouth (or keyboard).

 

[Leec6.5]

Lee...please dont take this the wrong way...I think in general that when you give your opinion you cause offence and you care not. This is to be applauded...unless you take offence easily in which case I imagine people weep in private recalling what you said

I am thick...and thick skinned and find it most amusing...but I'm just special...and maybe should engage brain before mouth (or keyboard).

You’re sharper than the average bear you've obviously figured out what it means

 

[Mike1979]

You’re sharper than the average bear evil obviously figured out what it means

I normally get called something that sounds like..runt...banker..hat ... but owning a creed it comes with the territory.

As the boss says "there's a fine line between blunt and rude..and your the wrong side of the line"

Best stop hijacking Tims thread as I'm not welcome as I'm rude

 

[Leec6.5]

I normally get called something that sounds like..runt...banker..hat ... but owning a creed it comes with the territory.

As the boss says "there's a fine line between blunt and rude..and your the wrong side of the line"

Best stop hijacking Tims thread as I'm not welcome as I'm rude

He won’t care. I spoke to him earlier on the phone and the language was worse than that. I will assure you.

 

[User100]

@Tim.243 @Norfolk Deer Search @GBR66
Ahhh - I understand. I'm sorry I mislead you - I meant 'class' as in category rather than quality.
This category being a regular buck that's out of the doe group, not in the main rutting action but nonetheless out and about looking for whatever action he can get.

@Mike1979 The respect bit was more to do with shooting him right now. They're wild deer that have been waiting nearly a year for the action and the respectful thing, in my view, is to do with disrupting the behaviour of the wild herd overall rather than the individuals and so to shoot them before or after and leave them be during, unless there's a over-riding reason. (Obviously it's just my view. After all, we all have different views on respect for them - for example, @VSS argues that it is more respectful to shoot a deer with minimal carcass damage, whereas, for me, the main thing is that it's dead & done quickly.)

If you took the time to do that, you’re not shooting enough deer, or you have no life one or the other and that is no offense intended!

It's neither - it's just a case of priorities and getting the fallow numbers down around me is a big one. I use the model to try and influence neighbouring landowners to expect higher doe numbers in their culls. It changes attitudes, helps them understand that this is a long game and just shooting on sight & getting "brown bodies laying on the deck. Nothing more nothing less" is not necessarily going to get the results (yield/££) that they ultimately want. Over time, and with a lot of resentment obviously, the approach is starting to pay off.

>>as soon as the 1st of November comes that is it glove are off non-stop every minute you’ve got spare
Precisely.

 

[Mike1979]

@Tim.243 @Norfolk Deer Search @GBR66
Ahhh - I understand. I'm sorry I mislead you - I meant 'class' as in category rather than quality.
This category being a regular buck that's out of the doe group, not in the main rutting action but nonetheless out and about looking for whatever action he can get.

@Mike1979 The respect bit was more to do with shooting him right now. They're wild deer that have been waiting nearly a year for the action and the respectful thing, in my view, is to do with disrupting the behaviour of the wild herd overall rather than the individuals and so to shoot them before or after and leave them be during, unless there's a over-riding reason. (Obviously it's just my view. After all, we all have different views on respect for them - for example, @VSS argues that it is more respectful to shoot a deer with minimal carcass damage, whereas, for me, the main thing is that it's dead & done quickly.)


It's neither - it's just a case of priorities and getting the fallow numbers down around me is a big one. I use the model to try and influence neighbouring landowners to expect higher doe numbers in their culls. It changes attitudes, helps them understand that this is a long game and just shooting on sight & getting "brown bodies laying on the deck. Nothing more nothing less" is not necessarily going to get the results (yield/££) that they ultimately want. Over time, and with a lot of resentment obviously, the approach is starting to pay off.

>>as soon as the 1st of November comes that is it glove are off non-stop every minute you’ve got spare
Precisely.

Makes sense and not trying to be an argumentative tool (for once)

 

[Leec6.5]

@Tim.243 @Norfolk Deer Search @GBR66
Ahhh - I understand. I'm sorry I mislead you - I meant 'class' as in category rather than quality.
This category being a regular buck that's out of the doe group, not in the main rutting action but nonetheless out and about looking for whatever action he can get.

@Mike1979 The respect bit was more to do with shooting him right now. They're wild deer that have been waiting nearly a year for the action and the respectful thing, in my view, is to do with disrupting the behaviour of the wild herd overall rather than the individuals and so to shoot them before or after and leave them be during, unless there's a over-riding reason. (Obviously it's just my view. After all, we all have different views on respect for them - for example, @VSS argues that it is more respectful to shoot a deer with minimal carcass damage, whereas, for me, the main thing is that it's dead & done quickly.)


It's neither - it's just a case of priorities and getting the fallow numbers down around me is a big one. I use the model to try and influence neighbouring landowners to expect higher doe numbers in their culls. It changes attitudes, helps them understand that this is a long game and just shooting on sight & getting "brown bodies laying on the deck. Nothing more nothing less" is not necessarily going to get the results (yield/££) that they ultimately want. Over time, and with a lot of resentment obviously, the approach is starting to pay off.

>>as soon as the 1st of November comes that is it glove are off non-stop every minute you’ve got spare
Precisely.

Thanks for taking 5 to explain