Latest article on lead micro and nano particles in deer and grouse

[jimmer.13]

I’ll read with great interest the link to any scientific data to care to post to back up this statement. I’m calling bullsh1t

I bet you also didn’t know Trump invented lead which then caused Brexit and long COVID………

 

[palmer_mike]

One I’m looking at is a .45. Already got a mould. Do you guys cast your own bullets and ball? The OP won’t mind hijacking his thread as he can’t read what we are posting. Think he blocked me and Smelly donks ago .

I do cast my own bullets for it yes. 480gr from a mold purchased from pedersoli.

 

[nocturnaldave]

I always try to educate myself with an open mind. I case as in all cases there is a certain amount of truth in this. My call in it is that proportionality plays a big part…. If I only ever ate lead shot pheasant duck and venison… nothing else ever… then I guess in time I could expect some form harm. In reality I eat other food groups …. I risk chemicals and pesticides on my fruit and veggies…. Animal meds in my milk and meats… heavy metals in my water … dear knows what in the air I breath. I will still enjoy my lead shot meats …. Just in proportion.

 

[jimmer.13]

I do cast my own bullets for it yes. 480gr from a mold purchased from pedersoli.

Do you add anything to your lead?

 

[palmer_mike]

Do you add anything to your lead?

No, needs to be pure (so it’s a soft as poss) for muzzle loaders

 

[Heym SR20]

I’ll read with great interest the link to any scientific data to care to post to back up this statement. I’m calling bullsh1t

You can call it bullsh1t all you want. The vast weight of scientific evidence and data - some of which i and others have linked to would rather give the opposite view to yours.

 

[cjm1066]

Possiable to use a muzzle loader in Scotland for deer Scottish Legal Muzzle Loader - Topic

 

[Smellydog]

A muzzleloader today is like a little bit of independence insurance!!!

 

[Tulloch]

Plenty of people do get to a good age. But plenty of people don’t. And there is plenty of evidence that lead is really very harmful and reduces your chances of getting to a good age. There is growing body of evidence that links lead pollution to heart disease, lung disease, cancers, dementia and inability to fight off infectious disease. If you think going to die well before your time, its likely to be any of the above it you don’t die through severe trauma.

And whilst you might want to continue to use lead, the lead you shoot out of your gun goes into the wider environment where it will affect others. So why should others die early just so you can continue polluting the environment with you lead bullets?

Yerp and there's growing evidence that people that Greenwash get ultimately proved wrong


2 facts that have been proven over this whole debate.

1. Gamedealers have fuelled the need to remove lead from game because their main market is in Europe and they require it to be lead free . The ask us stalkers to do more for them but they dont do much for us.

2. There has never been any proof that lead shot or in fact lead core bullets have harmed humans , different types of lead do harm humans though but thats not in bullets . What conservation scientists have found though that lead does harm Carrion birds and in particular Californian Vultures and thats where this all fuelled from.

I actually believe 2 main things about copper.

1. They are in fact inhumane to deer. To get a guaranteed humane kill you have to headshoot and even the bullet companies say you have to do that. So what have they done? Added head shooting to the DSC. Great now you will get 100's of deer running about with no jam.

2. Copper is just as toxic as lead .

Prove me wrong on all accounts.

 

[HonestJohn]

Can someone show me conclusive study that shows eating lead shot game is not harmful?

 

[palmer_mike]

You can call it bullsh1t all you want. The vast weight of scientific evidence and data - some of which i and others have linked to would rather give the opposite view to yours.

Absolutely not true.
No evidence has been posted on here as to how (as you assert) my firing lead based ammunition would cause the death of random members of the public. Are you suggesting that ramblers go around eating grallochs or something? Even if they did I don’t believe there has been a study into the effect to someone’s health from doing so.

 

[jimmer.13]

No, needs to be pure (so it’s a soft as poss) for muzzle loaders

Which do you prefer, patched ball or conical bullet?
Same question to Smelly dog.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Then ban the sale of lead shot carcasses into the food chain.
Dont ban the use of lead ammunition for those that are happy to use it and consume the meat themselves

The objection to the ban is really about the removal of freedom of choice

We all know what is going to happen, those who hunt for themselves will carry on for as long as they have stock.

 

[Norfolk Deer Search]

Yerp and there's growing evidence that people that Greenwash get ultimately proved wrong


2 facts that have been proven over this whole debate.

1. Gamedealers have fuelled the need to remove lead from game because their main market is in Europe and they require it to be lead free . The ask us stalkers to do more for them but they dont do much for us.

2. There has never been any proof that lead shot or in fact lead core bullets have harmed humans , different types of lead do harm humans though but thats not in bullets . What conservation scientists have found though that lead does harm Carrion birds and in particular Californian Vultures and thats where this all fuelled from.

I actually believe 2 main things about copper.

1. They are in fact inhumane to deer. To get a guaranteed humane kill you have to headshoot and even the bullet companies say you have to do that. So what have they done? Added head shooting to the DSC. Great now you will get 100's of deer running about with no jam.

2. Copper is just as toxic as lead .

Prove me wrong on all accounts.

Copper is humane loaded correctly, 90% of factory in my opinion are too light and too fast, therefore pencilling through with little or know blood to follow.

Heavier and slower bullets work a treat ta very much

 

[palmer_mike]

Which do you prefer, patched ball or conical bullet?
Same question to Smelly dog.

The fast twist is designed for the heavy conicals and these bullets are the only way (at black powder velocity) to make deer legal energy…..

I have shot targets with PRB but it’s much better with conicals

 

[palmer_mike]

We all know what is going to happen, those who hunt for themselves will carry on for as long as they have stock.

I’m sure that’s probably true, I just object to being forced to act illegally in order to carry on using my muzzle loading rifle I guess

 

[cjm1066]

I moved to copper 18 years ago and will not use lead again for deer, copper is more expensive but better.

 

[Heym SR20]

Yerp and there's growing evidence that people that Greenwash get ultimately proved wrong


2 facts that have been proven over this whole debate.

1. Gamedealers have fuelled the need to remove lead from game because their main market is in Europe and they require it to be lead free . The ask us stalkers to do more for them but they dont do much for us.

2. There has never been any proof that lead shot or in fact lead core bullets have harmed humans , different types of lead do harm humans though but thats not in bullets . What conservation scientists have found though that lead does harm Carrion birds and in particular Californian Vultures and thats where this all fuelled from.

I actually believe 2 main things about copper.

1. They are in fact inhumane to deer. To get a guaranteed humane kill you have to headshoot and even the bullet companies say you have to do that. So what have they done? Added head shooting to the DSC. Great now you will get 100's of deer running about with no jam.

2. Copper is just as toxic as lead .

Prove me wrong on all accounts.

Copper is toxic. Really?

Then please tell me why copper is included in most mult vitamin and mineral supplements


copper is fundamentally important to your metabolism and you would be pretty ill without it.Then please tell body regulates the amount in the body and excess is secreted in bile into your guts and out in the solid waste.

There are conditions where the copper system breaks down and there is a build up of excess copper. Ditto with iron (key part of haemohlobin which adsorbs oxygen). Again you can get disease when there is an excess of iron in the system.

Copper bullets generally remain in one piece or if the do break then it is into large pieces which are easily picked out. And thus its very unlikely that you will ingest any copper from an animal shot with a copper bullet. Thus very unlikely that you will suffer excess copper toxicity.


Copper bullets do not break into tiny little particles far too small to see for you to even notice that you have eaten them.

The molecular mechanisms of copper metabolism and its roles in human diseases - PubMed

Copper is an essential element in cells; it can act as either a recipient or a donor of electrons, participating in various reactions. However, an excess of copper ions in cells is detrimental as these copper ions can generate free radicals and increase oxidative stress. In multicellular...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Tulloch]

Copper is toxic. Really?

Then please tell me why copper is included in most mult vitamin and mineral supplements
View attachment 444789

copper is fundamentally important to your metabolism and you would be pretty ill without it.Then please tell body regulates the amount in the body and excess is secreted in bile into your guts and out in the solid waste.

There are conditions where the copper system breaks down and there is a build up of excess copper. Ditto with iron (key part of haemohlobin which adsorbs oxygen). Again you can get disease when there is an excess of iron in the system.

Copper bullets generally remain in one piece or if the do break then it is into large pieces which are easily picked out. They do not break into tiny little particles far too small to see for you to even notice that you have eaten them.

The molecular mechanisms of copper metabolism and its roles in human diseases - PubMed

Copper is an essential element in cells; it can act as either a recipient or a donor of electrons, participating in various reactions. However, an excess of copper ions in cells is detrimental as these copper ions can generate free radicals and increase oxidative stress. In multicellular...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Heym SR20]

Absolutely not true.
No evidence has been posted on here as to how (as you assert) my firing lead based ammunition would cause the death of random members of the public. Are you suggesting that ramblers go around eating grallochs or something? Even if they did I don’t believe there has been a study into the effect to someone’s health from doing so.

So you happy feeding lead shot venison to all your family and friends when there is very clear evidence of the harm that lead can do human health. Have you explained the potential harms of lead to them.