Whats your preference for binoculars and why ?
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Optical , Thermal or Multi-Spectral ?
- Thread starter Blackwood Outdoors
- Start date
I used to have separate binos and thermal. I now use the Habrooks, I sold my Leica rangefinder binoculars. For the shooting I do, they cover all the bases.
Advantages,
Low light capability.
Spot at an heat source in the woods or along a hedge line, press a button and move to bino mode to identify species.
All in one unit,
Most of the time I can identify the species using the thermal alone, using higher quality thermal, base thermal not good enough, sometimes need the binos to confirm sex.
With bino mode, you can also see the fence between you and the target, that you couldn’t see with the thermal.
Same foxing, thermal is great to identify, but good to use the nv to confirm that it is actually a fox, to be 100%.
I shoot within 150 meters, but have been able to identify out to 400. Not looked beyond so can’t comment. I really don’t need to go beyond that.
Last week I was looking at 4 fallow at 80 yards with the thermal, but could not see them with in Bino mode or by eye due to mist.
Disadvantages, weight, pixilation at high mag, remembering to keep the battery charged. Cost, of course.
Would I change back, no. The multi spectral does what I need.
The future, (imho)
Improved optics to reduce pixilation at zoom. that is a given.
Focus wheel, like on glass binos. The Habroks are still 2 handed to operate. Need to be able to use one handed. Hik have done that with the monoculars. Need to incorporate into the binos, DNT need to do the same with their multispectral scopes. That will make a big difference. I know there are challenges to do it.
Reduced weight would be nice.
Advantages,
Low light capability.
Spot at an heat source in the woods or along a hedge line, press a button and move to bino mode to identify species.
All in one unit,
Most of the time I can identify the species using the thermal alone, using higher quality thermal, base thermal not good enough, sometimes need the binos to confirm sex.
With bino mode, you can also see the fence between you and the target, that you couldn’t see with the thermal.
Same foxing, thermal is great to identify, but good to use the nv to confirm that it is actually a fox, to be 100%.
I shoot within 150 meters, but have been able to identify out to 400. Not looked beyond so can’t comment. I really don’t need to go beyond that.
Last week I was looking at 4 fallow at 80 yards with the thermal, but could not see them with in Bino mode or by eye due to mist.
Disadvantages, weight, pixilation at high mag, remembering to keep the battery charged. Cost, of course.
Would I change back, no. The multi spectral does what I need.
The future, (imho)
Improved optics to reduce pixilation at zoom. that is a given.
Focus wheel, like on glass binos. The Habroks are still 2 handed to operate. Need to be able to use one handed. Hik have done that with the monoculars. Need to incorporate into the binos, DNT need to do the same with their multispectral scopes. That will make a big difference. I know there are challenges to do it.
Reduced weight would be nice.
Nice post, good feedback...
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
My preference is still very much a decent good quality pair of binoculars. I do not like all the technology and faff that goes with digital optics. You are constantly worrying about switching it on and off, which menu, where the batteries are, have they been recharged etc etc Binoculars just work.
I appreciate there may be advantages of be able to spot deer in very poor visibility, but then question whether that translates into safe opportunities to shoot and recover deer. I am not convinced that they really save time.
I do not like the way a digital optic leaves your eyes somewhat blinded, and if looking at them for long period I suspect I would suffer eye damage. I much prefer to use my eyes for what they intended to do and that is to find deer.
Most digital have a very narrow field of view and have to operate at a much lower magnification. If you zoom in your field of view is very restricted.
I think digital may have their place in the hands of an experienced stalker who is under particular pressure to cull deer. But I can't help feelng that they are not a short cut for novices. I think many are now using them to just clear an area and not bother going and having a proper look. Deer have a real habit of getting themselves into hollows and dips in the ground, and thus cannot be seen by scanning from the pickup. Get out and go for a look and you will start seeing deer as the landscape unfolds. Or just give it time and the deer appear.
I appreciate there may be advantages of be able to spot deer in very poor visibility, but then question whether that translates into safe opportunities to shoot and recover deer. I am not convinced that they really save time.
I do not like the way a digital optic leaves your eyes somewhat blinded, and if looking at them for long period I suspect I would suffer eye damage. I much prefer to use my eyes for what they intended to do and that is to find deer.
Most digital have a very narrow field of view and have to operate at a much lower magnification. If you zoom in your field of view is very restricted.
I think digital may have their place in the hands of an experienced stalker who is under particular pressure to cull deer. But I can't help feelng that they are not a short cut for novices. I think many are now using them to just clear an area and not bother going and having a proper look. Deer have a real habit of getting themselves into hollows and dips in the ground, and thus cannot be seen by scanning from the pickup. Get out and go for a look and you will start seeing deer as the landscape unfolds. Or just give it time and the deer appear.
Wholeheartedly agree with post 2, above. I use the cheapest Habrok unit that you can get and it’s everything I need. I’ll upgrade in a few years but I don’t need it to do anything more than it does.
I’d like the buttons to be programmable so that I can use it with one hand etc. and it’d be nice if the zoom aligned between modes but these things don’t bother me.
I’ll be upgrading the rest of my kit before I upgrade the habrok so it would be great if everything uses the same batteries, buttons in same place etc.
I’d like the buttons to be programmable so that I can use it with one hand etc. and it’d be nice if the zoom aligned between modes but these things don’t bother me.
I’ll be upgrading the rest of my kit before I upgrade the habrok so it would be great if everything uses the same batteries, buttons in same place etc.
Lightweight, simple and effective...
The entry level Habrok 4K the optics are great lowlight and do have an edge on traditional optics for this use , plus you have the LRF also. Thermal is very basic, but it spots heat still and you can get in location, and locate, etc... FOV is quite tight with a 256 sensor though, If it works, why change..
HonestJohn
Well-Known Member
My personal view, after having worked in the NV/Thermal sector for years, is - it’s heavy, unreliable, and worst, it removes the ‘magic’, the mystery, the unknown. You move too fast, you don’t spend time watching the world, you stop understanding nature and why/how it works.
You stop looking for deer trails, footprint, listening to pigeons taking off when deer disturb them in the woods. You, stop being one with nature.
My view, it ruins stalking at its purest, it takes away all the things that create the experience.
From a management perspective, they’re efficient, but it mechanises what should be instinctive
You stop looking for deer trails, footprint, listening to pigeons taking off when deer disturb them in the woods. You, stop being one with nature.
My view, it ruins stalking at its purest, it takes away all the things that create the experience.
From a management perspective, they’re efficient, but it mechanises what should be instinctive
I agree with you... it's too effective and you lose the ambience of just being out there waiting and feeling the outdoors..
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
I agree with you and @HonestJohn. Probably a bit like how a modern Satellite controlled tractor has completely removed all the skill required to drive a tractor. Nothing like the satisfaction of getting a plough set up well and then producing really even and straight furrows. Nowadays it seems you just press buttons on a gameboy and watch Netflix.
I believe the current market shift toward digital is a result of traditional glass optics reaching a performance plateau. Improvements in high-end glass are now so marginal that users see little incentive to upgrade. For example, an owner of a premium German scope is unlikely to trade in their current model—and lose 30-40% of its value—for minor changes like new glass coatings or slightly improved turrets.
Consequently, many users are opting to sell their expensive traditional optics to switch to digital alternatives, often pocketing a significant price difference in the process. We are seeing this same trend impact the binocular market, specifically regarding multispectral devices.
These shifts have caused secondhand prices for traditional glass to fall, and I suspect new sales for middle-to-high-end optics will continue to struggle. For example if you listed a Z6i or Delta 2.5-15x56 for sale at 60-70% if it’s new value 2 years ago it would be snapped up in pretty short order. Now they sit on the classified pages for much longer and don’t tend to shift until the price is less than 50% for the Delta and closer to 55-60% for the Z6i’s. European manufacturers are likely concerned, as they face significant challenges competing with the budget-friendly technology coming out of China.
Multi spectral binoculars are the next device to upset the traditional trend and the manufacturers know this as they are all out to steal a chunk of the glass market.
As a final point though can they stop making devices for right handed use with regards to monoculars and making the middle of the market stuff with silly high base mags. Granted 90% of the population are right handed, but that generally means they shoot with that eye and putting a TV screen in front of it for long periods of time in low light just means they have terrible night vision in their shooting eye at the critical point. I suppose though they assume that it’s digital spotter and digital scope so night vision ability isn’t required. With regards to the high base mag comment I fully understand that it makes a 380 sensor look good out of a gun shop window or in a exhibition centre hall, but you take that device into woodland (where I am lead to believe some deer tend to live) and it’s just plain annoying to have such a narrow field of view.
Consequently, many users are opting to sell their expensive traditional optics to switch to digital alternatives, often pocketing a significant price difference in the process. We are seeing this same trend impact the binocular market, specifically regarding multispectral devices.
These shifts have caused secondhand prices for traditional glass to fall, and I suspect new sales for middle-to-high-end optics will continue to struggle. For example if you listed a Z6i or Delta 2.5-15x56 for sale at 60-70% if it’s new value 2 years ago it would be snapped up in pretty short order. Now they sit on the classified pages for much longer and don’t tend to shift until the price is less than 50% for the Delta and closer to 55-60% for the Z6i’s. European manufacturers are likely concerned, as they face significant challenges competing with the budget-friendly technology coming out of China.
Multi spectral binoculars are the next device to upset the traditional trend and the manufacturers know this as they are all out to steal a chunk of the glass market.
As a final point though can they stop making devices for right handed use with regards to monoculars and making the middle of the market stuff with silly high base mags. Granted 90% of the population are right handed, but that generally means they shoot with that eye and putting a TV screen in front of it for long periods of time in low light just means they have terrible night vision in their shooting eye at the critical point. I suppose though they assume that it’s digital spotter and digital scope so night vision ability isn’t required. With regards to the high base mag comment I fully understand that it makes a 380 sensor look good out of a gun shop window or in a exhibition centre hall, but you take that device into woodland (where I am lead to believe some deer tend to live) and it’s just plain annoying to have such a narrow field of view.
Multispectral, without a doubt.
Bought Hik Habrok HE25L when they first came out, really just to test them.
Within 2 months I had sold my Pulsar XQ38 and Vortex Fury binos.
Absolute game change to have everything in one device and to be able to switch from thermal to optical without having to tefind the target.
With the 25's I could always find and identify the thermal source but sometimes struggled to identify its place in the landscape due to low thermal resolution.
Just upgraded to Pixfra Draco 635's and that problem is solved!!! They are also a bit nicer and more intuitive to handle.
Bought Hik Habrok HE25L when they first came out, really just to test them.
Within 2 months I had sold my Pulsar XQ38 and Vortex Fury binos.
Absolute game change to have everything in one device and to be able to switch from thermal to optical without having to tefind the target.
With the 25's I could always find and identify the thermal source but sometimes struggled to identify its place in the landscape due to low thermal resolution.
Just upgraded to Pixfra Draco 635's and that problem is solved!!! They are also a bit nicer and more intuitive to handle.
I dont have multi spectral but glass binos and a thernal spotter ..
Maybe time to sell both and consolidate / put money towards a pair of multispectral .
I won't he selling the small post binos or cheaper vortex back up binoculars I have tho.
Reason being you watch a beast or something in nature thru decent glass and ambient light ....its a reminder thst digital doesnt touch it ..
But thats not same at first and last light
Paul
Maybe time to sell both and consolidate / put money towards a pair of multispectral .
I won't he selling the small post binos or cheaper vortex back up binoculars I have tho.
Reason being you watch a beast or something in nature thru decent glass and ambient light ....its a reminder thst digital doesnt touch it ..
But thats not same at first and last light
Paul
HonestJohn
Well-Known Member
It’s not just that, you can wave goodbye to watching nature in its beauty, seeing detail and clarity. You’ll miss glass unless you just want to kill deer of course.
I've just moved from Hik Habrok HE25L to Pixfra Draco 635's.
Apart from the obvious higher thrrmal resolution they are more compact, lighter and have a focus wheel!
The field of view is affected by three things pixel pitch, sensor size and lens focal length.
Pixel Pitch: Larger 17um sensors provided more FOV than the now standard 12um sensors
Sensor sizes: 256px provides the most magnification and narrowest FOV , whilst 1280px provides the widest FOV, whilst retaining low magnification that retains detail.
Lens Focal Length : 75mm being the largest used by mainstream manufacturers, again affects magnification and FOV.
I would not recommend anything in spotter form that uses 256px or 384px 12um sensors with 50mm lenses, these should only use a 35mm lens maximum for most users and even then the FOV is very tight and magnification high, ok for long range but not great for up close scanning, finding animals or picking up..
The sweet spot is 35mm and 640px 12um combination for most users, in terms of value, performance and usability OR jump to a 1024px or 1280px sensor with 50mm/60mm lens, which covers everything super wide FOV , high resolution and long detection range.
The magniifcation has been increased slightly on some products but this does not affect FOV, it's purely down to the eye displays being larger/higher resolution so they have increased the magnification on the display side..
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As I've written elsewhere on here, I've moved away from using my Alpex 4k LRF, which had proved to be devastating on fallow at FL/LL, to using a Thunder 3 TQ50C (with my Z6i ) for those 30-40 minutes at FL/LL where normal glass isn't good enough. The principle reason for doing this is that during daylight stalking I get to use excellent glass with the richness and clarity that it gives. Similarly with binoculars, I was trained to use glass to visually identify quarry, to sex, age and observe behaviour. When thermals came on the scene I was an early adopter, but solely as a means of discerning there was something of interest, to always be followed up by observation through glass. I'm now on my 5th iteration of thermal spotter (Telos XP50LRF) and frankly cannot see me further upgrading, if ever. However, as a deer stalker needing those precious FL/LL extra minutes on occasion, my trusty Leica Geovids HD-B's have there limitations so I was an early adopter of the Hik Habrok HE25L's. However, these similarly to the Alpex are no substitute IMHO in daylight to my Leica/Telos combo, so they got reserved again for purely FL/LL use.
With the arrival of the Dracos on the scene, the D635's better thermal seemed a significant step forward so, being the gadget tart I am, I was once again an early adopter. Daylight use looked very promising and the thermal is indeed a step up on the base Habroks as are the optics, but in typical stalking wet and windy conditions last night, I admit to being very disappointed and can see these similarly being relegated like the Habrok's to FL/LL use.
I've attached 2 poor videos below from last night; the first is video from the Draco's, the second from my Telos shortly thereafter to give a thermal comparison. Bluntly, I'm with @Heym SR20 and @HonestJohn here, that there is no reasonable price alternative to glass and my personal preference (and pleasure) comes from using good glass doing what is primarily a hobby for me providing enjoyment. I fully recognise that to others, where needs drive results that, the compromise swings the other way, but as a principally recreational stalker, glass is king for me and provides the experience I desire.
Draco D635: Note the reaction to turning on the 840nm IR and the Roe at 2:25.
Telos XP50:
With the arrival of the Dracos on the scene, the D635's better thermal seemed a significant step forward so, being the gadget tart I am, I was once again an early adopter. Daylight use looked very promising and the thermal is indeed a step up on the base Habroks as are the optics, but in typical stalking wet and windy conditions last night, I admit to being very disappointed and can see these similarly being relegated like the Habrok's to FL/LL use.
I've attached 2 poor videos below from last night; the first is video from the Draco's, the second from my Telos shortly thereafter to give a thermal comparison. Bluntly, I'm with @Heym SR20 and @HonestJohn here, that there is no reasonable price alternative to glass and my personal preference (and pleasure) comes from using good glass doing what is primarily a hobby for me providing enjoyment. I fully recognise that to others, where needs drive results that, the compromise swings the other way, but as a principally recreational stalker, glass is king for me and provides the experience I desire.
Draco D635: Note the reaction to turning on the 840nm IR and the Roe at 2:25.
Telos XP50:
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Was chatting with my cousin yesterday. He is an ex military Chinook pilot and no flies a Police Helicopter. Much of his time is now spent looking for bodies (suicides in rivers etc) and people. Whilst they have lots of sensors etc. the Mark 1 eyeball is still by far the preferred tool of choice when the are looking and observing things.
Indeed, a lot of my stalking used to be on open military training areas and the eye's ability to detect movement at range is surprising! Sadly, most of our quarry are better equipped to do this than us!
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