timbrayford
Well-Known Member
Nobody needs a gun -that's what the antis say. We either stand united together or fall apart one by one just like the handgun, semi-auto c/f and hound sports have.
Lead - EU Reach Meeting/Proposal
- Thread starter Woodenbeam
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timbrayford
Well-Known Member
Actually, now you come to mention it, but where is the non-lead alternative for 9mm Flobert rimfire garden gun? Can you post a link please?
enfieldspares
Well-Known Member
See my recent post #140 a page just back on this same thread.
Makes you wonder how birds of prey have been doing so well........
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
I think that what is missing from O'Gorman's argument is not only any sense of proportionality but also hard evidence of 9mm Flobert causing any problems other than a very,very remote " lead & its compounds are toxic" therefore.... etc.
The widespread use of lead based anti-fouling from boats doesn't get a mention, acid rain on lead roof flashings, and that much of the lead toxicity that people have been afflicted by are those arising from the noxious gases of lead acetate additives to petrol, melting lead sheeting/soldering of leadwork, and blow torching of old lead paint, just to name a few. As for that risible notion that O'Gorman put forward of grey partridge chicks scoffing up spent shot I can only suggest that he brushes up on his gamekeeping skills and puts some grit out for his birds!
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Agree that a lead bullet will kill you.
In terms of proof:
Lets agree that ingested lead is harmful. That is the general consensus of the medical professions, who etc.
A lead based bullet typically leaves 50% of its mass as fragments within the carcass and gralloch.
Then is it possible that lead fragments in venison and game are bioavailable???
Two studies in particular.
1) Hunt et al in 2009, published the following research where they fed pigs (breed and used for scientific purposes) with lead contaminated venison. Pigs are commonly used as a surrogate for man in scientific/ medical experiments. They showed that after eating lead contaminated venison there was significant rise in the blood levels of lead in the pigs. After a time blood lead levels will go down as the lead is then deposited in bone and bone marrow.
Lead Bullet Fragments in Venison from Rifle-Killed Deer: Potential for Human Dietary Exposure - PMC
Human consumers of wildlife killed with lead ammunition may be exposed to health risks associated with lead ingestion. This hypothesis is based on published studies showing elevated blood lead concentrations in subsistence hunter populations, ...
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
2) A further study in 2021 in Germany took the above work further. The pigs lead contaminated venison. The also marinated the meat in vinegar. This give rise to lead acetate, and they showed that marination of game meat increases of lead 5 to 6 fold. The article cites Spanish work on quail with shot pellets that yealded similar results.
Marination increases the bioavailability of lead in game meat shot with lead ammunition - PMC
Both of used X-Rays to determine lead in the meat.
Recent studies using electron microscopes have shown that lead bullets fragment in nano sized particles and these are widely transported around the animal carcass. Thesis is the particles are transported in the blood in the last moments of life. These nano particles cannot be detected by X-rays and are small enough, that when eaten they will pass through the gut wall directly into the blood.
Lead micro- and nanoparticles directly observed within gunshot wounds in hunted game meat - Scientific Reports
Bullets, shot, and other projectiles from firearms can fragment inadvertently when they strike a target. The fragmentation process is concerning for hunting, where the projectiles are often lead-based, and the targets are animals that will likely be ingested by people and/or scavenging wildlife...
www.nature.com
There is now a large body of work showing that lead is a significant contributory factor to whole host of different diseases, from impairment of children’s growth and development, infertility, dementia and cancers, in particular blood cancers. The WHO’s position is that there is no safe level of lead in man. Certainly work on Leukaemia and Small Cell Lung cancer shows a very strong correlation between the diseases and lead in the blood at a nano gram level per litre of blood. Studies in patients with secondary AML where the lead is removed using chelation has shown a very high survival rate now three years after those studies were down. Normal survival rate after secondary acute myeloid leukaemia is a matter of days. This approach to treatment has no received orphan drug status (ie can be used in the terminally ill) and is going forward into clinical trials.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Lead based antifoulings were banned a number of years ago.
Norfolk Deer Search
Well-Known Member
So reading Into all that tripe, can you find me someone who is sick or dying from lead poisoning caused by lead shot deer or game?Agree that a lead bullet will kill you.
In terms of proof:
Lets agree that ingested lead is harmful. That is the general consensus of the medical professions, who etc.
A lead based bullet typically leaves 50% of its mass as fragments within the carcass and gralloch.
Then is it possible that lead fragments in venison and game are bioavailable???
Two studies in particular.
1) Hunt et al in 2009, published the following research where they fed pigs (breed and used for scientific purposes) with lead contaminated venison. Pigs are commonly used as a surrogate for man in scientific/ medical experiments. They showed that after eating lead contaminated venison there was significant rise in the blood levels of lead in the pigs. After a time blood lead levels will go down as the lead is then deposited in bone and bone marrow.
Lead Bullet Fragments in Venison from Rifle-Killed Deer: Potential for Human Dietary Exposure - PMC
Human consumers of wildlife killed with lead ammunition may be exposed to health risks associated with lead ingestion. This hypothesis is based on published studies showing elevated blood lead concentrations in subsistence hunter populations, ...
2) A further study in 2021 in Germany took the above work further. The pigs lead contaminated venison. The also marinated the meat in vinegar. This give rise to lead acetate, and they showed that marination of game meat increases of lead 5 to 6 fold. The article cites Spanish work on quail with shot pellets that yealded similar results.
Marination increases the bioavailability of lead in game meat shot with lead ammunition - PMC
Both of used X-Rays to determine lead in the meat.
Recent studies using electron microscopes have shown that lead bullets fragment in nano sized particles and these are widely transported around the animal carcass. Thesis is the particles are transported in the blood in the last moments of life. These nano particles cannot be detected by X-rays and are small enough, that when eaten they will pass through the gut wall directly into the blood.
Lead micro- and nanoparticles directly observed within gunshot wounds in hunted game meat - Scientific Reports
Bullets, shot, and other projectiles from firearms can fragment inadvertently when they strike a target. The fragmentation process is concerning for hunting, where the projectiles are often lead-based, and the targets are animals that will likely be ingested by people and/or scavenging wildlife...
There is now a large body of work showing that lead is a significant contributory factor to whole host of different diseases, from impairment of children’s growth and development, infertility, dementia and cancers, in particular blood cancers. The WHO’s position is that there is no safe level of lead in man. Certainly work on Leukaemia and Small Cell Lung cancer shows a very strong correlation between the diseases and lead in the blood at a nano gram level per litre of blood. Studies in patients with secondary AML where the lead is removed using chelation has shown a very high survival rate now three years after those studies were down. Normal survival rate after secondary acute myeloid leukaemia is a matter of days. This approach to treatment has no received orphan drug status (ie can be used in the terminally ill) and is going forward into clinical trials.
Simple yes or no will do.
i did ask for a study once or twice that proved illness was caused by eating lead shot game but oddly im still waiting.........
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
Yes - two. I lost a good friend, and an uncle who both ate a lot of lead shot game during their life. They both developed myeloma and lived with that for a few years and then switched to full blown leukaemia and they were dead within a few weeks. Friend was tested fir lead and had elevated levels in his blood. I did try and get him on the trials, but he was dead before we get things organised. The trials were being done in the US and Netherlands.
If you have any friends or family who eat game and are suffering from dementia, small cell lung cancer or blood cancers, chances are they have elevated levels of lead in the body. Challenge is that levels are still quite low - 25 nmols per litre, which is below threshold, of what NHS considers harmful. The thresholds are looking at acute lead toxicity, not long term triggering disease.
Have a read of
A heavy metal baseline score predicts outcome in AML - PMC
Despite abundant epidemiological data linking metals to leukemia and other cancers, baseline values of toxic and essential metals in patients with leukemia and the clinical impact of these metals remain unknown. Thus, we sought to quantify metal ...
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Note quite sure why you use the words “tripe” - what I describe is good peer reviewed science published in leading journals that is now progressing into treatments for cancer that involve removing lead and other heavy metals.
Part of the science to support the clinical trials is a body of work showing why lead is so disruptive - it affects how your immune system tackles cancerous cells in the body. We all produce mutations - its part of everday cell growth. Our immune system keeps these mutations under control.
Lead stops the immune proteins from being able to capture onto the cancerous cells.
To be honest, it matters not whether you or any others think that the science is “tripe”.
What matters is that the powers that be have looked at all the evidence and made their rulings based on the science that lead in any form is harmful, whether its ingested directly through eating game, breathed in as lead salts as part of exhaust fumes, or consumed in water or in plants that have been grown on contaminated land.
The Game and Wildlife Trust publish the following summary which gives an easy to understand overview
This was written a few years and thus doesn’t reference much of the recently published work.
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Norfolk Deer Search
Well-Known Member
So was lead shot game the proven cause?
Again yes or no
My grandfather also died of the myeloma and full blown leukaemia and never touched game in this life, so really that sort of kicks that into touch
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
No it was not proven. Mainly because lead ingestion is a long term effect and in most cases metals are not even looked for.
With your grandfather - had he ever been exposed to lead, had he breathed in petrol exhaust fumes etc. when did he die?
My grandmother lived to the age of 92, and drank bottles or red wine, gin and whisky and smoked 40 a day. She was completely pickled and demented, but died of old age.
You could equally say that alcohol and smoking does no harm.
Her half brother, also an alcoholic, who was a lightweight compared to her died of acute liver failure aged 50.
My brother in laws father was a heavy smoker and died of emphacaema in his late 60’s.
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palmer_mike
Well-Known Member
Well how about you post proof that ingesting a lead bullet has caused lead poisoning and serious illness/death in a human and then maybe we can accept your statement above
palmer_mike
Well-Known Member
Everyone in the world has been exposed to lead to some degree
Norfolk Deer Search
Well-Known Member
No lead exposure at all, the myeloma started in his spine and died about 10 years ago.
You can’t blame myeloma and Leukaemia on lead exposure, people die every day from the bastard disease, personally I think your scratching around for something to blame, if it was a common cause and 000’s of people have died of the PROVEN game meat lead cause then I would agree with you 100%
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
I don’t see that you’ve made any point at all, certainly nothing there to refute anything I’ve said.
Your post is actually a miracle of “ whataboutery “, it contributes nothing to the discussion.
There are 2 main arguments against continuing to use lead.
(1). Incidental poisoning of wildlife associated with its use.
Proven beyond question.
(2). Impacts on human health
Again proven beyond question and the reason that the WHO have advised that there is no safe level of exposure.
You don’t have to believe that if it inconveniences you, but you’re in a small minority, most of us are happy to do what we can to reduce our exposure, and if that means legislating to prevent you personally from broadcasting lead unnecessarily into the environment, so be it, suck it up.
We’re done arguing
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
Very true, but irrelevant to the discussion.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
I have.
Norfolk Deer Search
Well-Known Member
With cast iron proof that was the cause.
Heym SR20
Well-Known Member
People do die every year from the bastard disease.
In 2020 research carried out at the MD Cancer Clinic in Houston Texas was published showing a clear link between heavy metals in the blood and Leukaemia. This was published in the American Journal of Haematology. MD Anderson is one of the Worlds leading reaearch hospitals in oncology.
I have referenced the articles above.
Subsequent to the above article, the same researchers did a trial on nearly 100 different patients all suffering from secondary leukaemia. Life expectancy was a few days.
They removed the lead and other heavy metals from their blood.
3 years later a large majority of those patients are fit and well and showing no sign of the disease.
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