Head and neck shots with lead ammunition

šŸ˜‚šŸ¤£ So it couldn't be seen using x ray or mri or whatever then? Otherwise how would the doctors know the lady had a lodged pellet?
Funny you should mention X-rays and MRI scans. I give some pheasants & partridges away to a chap in the village, and out of the blue, a few weeks ago, I got a WhatsApp from him, asking if the game was shot with lead shot or an alternative... as the hospital scan had found a small roundish thing near his appendix and they wondered what it was....
 
Ok , let’s ask the question again for the 1000th time-
Employing a rhetorical device characteristic of American politicians to deliver a loaded response is simple, but not very rigorous.
Let's reply again:
1. Is lead harmful? - Yes, it damages quite a number of enzyme pathways and has no functional role in any organism
2. Are there recorded cases of human lead poising from ingested lead shot? - Yes, I've posted some including the bizarre one where a lady had chronic illness until she had a bought of diarrhoea and crapped a pellet
Are there many recorded cases? Enough to amount to a significant number? No.
3. Are there recorded cases of animal lead poisoning from bullet fragments in carcasses - Plenty, and birds are quite sensitive to it
Some species and families of birds much more than others. It is misrepresentative to claim an equivalence in vulnerability.
In any event, a risk which can be completely.obviated, if significant, by not leaving carcasses or gralloch out.
4. Are there recorded cases of higher blood lead in humans through eating lead contaminated meat - Yes
5. Are there recorded cases of someone dying from eating lead contaminated meat? - No, - I've not been able to find any, despite a good literature search
Indeed.
6. Can lead be replaced by effective alternatives? - Yes.
It can be, but is not always replaceable by effective alternatives. Thus a wide-ranging ban is inappropriate.
The comment "subject to the proviso that you're not a total idiot" is relevant because there is a population health aspect to the selling of game as the general public know nothing of this issue, so there has to be guidance to keep lead particles out of food.
Up to a point....the same argument applies to cinnamon and to cured meat, both of which are definite carcinogens. What is appropriate is guidance and regulation to keep down the levels of these within sensible levels. The objection with lead bans is that they go very far beyond what is sensible. They leverage a minor risk to justify what is desired for other reasons (i.e. anti-shooting activism).
Xray studies show the scattering of lead particles beyond the obvious wound channel (see above),
....into waste materials. Looking above, one of the images (none are properly labelled) appears to show an animal shot with a shotgun - the scattering of lead pellets around a non-food area is not pertinent here. Let's discount that one. The rest show without distinguishing fragments of bone and presumably metal (copper and lead) spread around the viscera of the animal. None of those images defnitely shows contamination of meat.
the study quoted makes the point that X-rays have a limit of detecting lead at about 0.5mm, but that there are smaller fragments below this size that they have detected.
Indeed. But do you make the presumption that AGHEs and the relevant regulatory bodies are staffed by total idiots wholly ignorant of their jobs? I don't.
 
This has boggled my mind :oops:..
All I can think is that the pellet must have been expelled from her anus with such force that it cracked the toilet pan, thus making her investigate the carnage in the bottom of the pan more closely, leading her to find the said pellet... :scared:..
It's a weird one:

A 45-year-old woman was referred to the Department of Occupational and Environmental Health in January 2002 because of increased blood lead concentrations of unknown origin. She suffered from malaise, fatigue, and diffuse gastrointestinal symptoms. She had a blood lead level of 550 microg/L (normal range < 40 microg/L). The patient had not been occupationally exposed to lead, and no potential lead sources, such as food products or lead-glazed pottery, could be identified. Her food habits were normal, but she did consume game occasionally. Clinical examination, including standard neurologic examination, was normal. No anemia was present. Laboratory tests showed an increased excretion of lead in the urine, but there were no signs of microproteinuria. An abdominal X ray in October 2002 revealed a 6-mm rounded metal object in the colon ascendens. Before the object could be further localized, the patient contracted winter vomiting disease (gastroenteritis) and the metal object was spontaneously released from the colon during a diarrhea attack. The object was a lead shot pellet, possibly but not normally used in Sweden for hunting wild boar or roe deer. Blood lead levels slowly decreased. Nine months later the patient's blood lead levels were almost normal (approximately 70 microg/L) and her symptoms had almost completely disappeared. In this case, a rare source of lead exposure was found. In investigations of blood lead elevations of unknown origin, we recommend abdominal X ray in parallel with repeated blood lead determinations.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure...-to-2003-The-arrow-indicates-the_fig4_7924273
Patient's blood lead concentrations from 1992 to 2003. The arrow indicates the elimination of the lead shot pellet.
…

Photograph of the lead shot pellet. Photographed by G. Hagelthorn.

Photograph of the lead shot pellet. Photographed by G. Hagelthorn.
…

https://www.researchgate.net/figure...1YmxpY2F0aW9uIiwicGFnZSI6InB1YmxpY2F0aW9uIn19
No caption available
…
https://www.researchgate.net/figure...1YmxpY2F0aW9uIiwicGFnZSI6InB1YmxpY2F0aW9uIn19
 
It does. Controlling it is a massive challenge. Controlling lead ammunition is a straightforward as not using it.
You can't blame lead shot for everything :doh:
Bird flu (avian influenza) has been recognized for nearly 150 years, with the first recorded, high-mortality outbreaks in poultry documented in northern Italy in 1878.
The science has failed in AI, so as often the finger points to the soft target (shooters)
Ban smoking would be the first port of call then the generations in the future can directly see the benefit.
 
It's a weird one:

A 45-year-old woman was referred to the Department of Occupational and Environmental Health in January 2002 because of increased blood lead concentrations of unknown origin. She suffered from malaise, fatigue, and diffuse gastrointestinal symptoms. She had a blood lead level of 550 microg/L (normal range < 40 microg/L). The patient had not been occupationally exposed to lead, and no potential lead sources, such as food products or lead-glazed pottery, could be identified. Her food habits were normal, but she did consume game occasionally. Clinical examination, including standard neurologic examination, was normal. No anemia was present. Laboratory tests showed an increased excretion of lead in the urine, but there were no signs of microproteinuria. An abdominal X ray in October 2002 revealed a 6-mm rounded metal object in the colon ascendens. Before the object could be further localized, the patient contracted winter vomiting disease (gastroenteritis) and the metal object was spontaneously released from the colon during a diarrhea attack. The object was a lead shot pellet, possibly but not normally used in Sweden for hunting wild boar or roe deer. Blood lead levels slowly decreased. Nine months later the patient's blood lead levels were almost normal (approximately 70 microg/L) and her symptoms had almost completely disappeared. In this case, a rare source of lead exposure was found. In investigations of blood lead elevations of unknown origin, we recommend abdominal X ray in parallel with repeated blood lead determinations.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure...-to-2003-The-arrow-indicates-the_fig4_7924273
Patient's blood lead concentrations from 1992 to 2003. The arrow indicates the elimination of the lead shot pellet.
…
Photograph of the lead shot pellet. Photographed by G. Hagelthorn.
Photograph of the lead shot pellet. Photographed by G. Hagelthorn.
…
https://www.researchgate.net/figure...1YmxpY2F0aW9uIiwicGFnZSI6InB1YmxpY2F0aW9uIn19
No caption available
…
https://www.researchgate.net/figure...1YmxpY2F0aW9uIiwicGFnZSI6InB1YmxpY2F0aW9uIn19
Lead levels in the blood go down over time. But the lead doesn’t go away, it is deposited in bone material and can rear its ugly head at some point in the future. Note that the patient in question was referred in 2002.

The ā€œnormalā€ level of 40 micrograms is very much a long established threshold and is still in use as it is easily measurable. Much of more recent research, and indeed the WHO recommendations are that no level of lead in the blood is safe.

What would be interesting is how that patient is now doing 25 years later.
 
A failure of process in a AGHE lead to over 100 cats contracting TB, and (I think) three of there owners being investigated.
....and....?

I don't know what you're getting at here. Are we to think that because a failure of process made some animals ill, that this industry generally operates too dangerously? If so, you're in for a hell of a shock when you discover the NHS.
 
You can't blame lead shot for everything :doh:
Bird flu (avian influenza) has been recognized for nearly 150 years, with the first recorded, high-mortality outbreaks in poultry documented in northern Italy in 1878.
The science has failed in AI, so as often the finger points to the soft target (shooters)
Ban smoking would be the first port of call then the generations in the future can directly see the benefit.
We are at cross purposes I think.
Lead fragments, in gralloch or left carcasses, can be avoided by using non-lead ammunition, very much within our control.
 
....and....?

I don't know what you're getting at here. Are we to think that because a failure of process made some animals ill, that this industry generally operates too dangerously? If so, you're in for a hell of a shock when you discover the NHS.
I felt you suggested that AGHE were diligent enough to remove lead contaminated meat, so I flagged an incident that was quite spectacular in the consequences of a breakdown. Avoid any lead in the carcass and the risk is removed
 
We are at cross purposes I think.
Lead fragments, in gralloch or left carcasses, can be avoided by using non-lead ammunition, very much within our control.
The drive behind the lead ban is allegedly) for both lead in shotguns/rifles so no cross purposes with the alleged deaths to birds put down to lead pellets and your quote.
It is easy to point the finger to lead with a bird handed in, and I am sure the figures of AI will have slipped over the track to the lead camp.
 
I felt you suggested that AGHE were diligent enough to remove lead contaminated meat, so I flagged an incident that was quite spectacular in the consequences of a breakdown.
Indeed, a spectacular failing, but perhaps not reasonable to condemn the whole?. If I flagged the incident where a senior obstetrician literally pulled a baby's head right off, should we condemn the NHS as being too unsafe? To be fair there are thousands of serious failings in the NHS every single year with no sign of ever learning the lessons.
Avoid any lead in the carcass and the risk is removed
 
What I am referring to is in the intervening 25 years has she gone on to develop dementia or cancers etc.
I think personally you’re on a Crusade to prove a point, where I think you will fail that there is any connection from lead shot game causing cancer cancer in humans in any way shape or form!

Cancer is a horrible creature both my father-in-law and my grandfather both lost their lives to cancer and to my knowledge. My grandfather never ate that shot game and my father-in-law ate all the game I gave him which was venison and that was shot with copper!

I have only started using lead for the first time in 15 years just as a personal protest because I don’t agree with being told with what I can and cannot shoot with what can I consume
 
I think personally you’re on a Crusade to prove a point, where I think you will fail that there is any connection from lead shot game causing cancer cancer in humans in any way shape or form!

Cancer is a horrible creature both my father-in-law and my grandfather both lost their lives to cancer and to my knowledge. My grandfather never ate that shot game and my father-in-law ate all the game I gave him which was venison and that was shot with copper!

I have only started using lead for the first time in 15 years just as a personal protest because I don’t agree with being told with what I can and cannot shoot with what can I consume
You are free to do whatever want to do. Cancer is terrible - I have family and friends who also died of it - three of my grand parents, an aunt and two great uncles, my mother abd sister are both in remission. i have worked as an advisor to companies that are developing treatments for cancer and other nasty diseases.

I am a corporate advisor dealing with commercial strategies, but this gives a very close insight into the science, and also have to understand to at least level where I can explain it commercial partners.

Fundamentally statements ā€œthat lead doesn’t killā€, or ā€œnobody has died from eating leadā€ are untrue.

I don’t really care whether you poison your own body, but I am very much of the belief that we should not put into the foodchain, whether that be for man, animal or bird substances that are harmful. Whether this is toxic metals, plastics or other chemicals- it doesn’t really matter - they are all equally as bad.

Your grandfather may not have eaten shot game, but he was almost certainly exposed to lead in petrol, paint, tin cans (lead solder was used in tin cans until the 1960’s), water pipes. He would also have been exposed high levels of tobacco smoke even if he never smoked. If he had been in the war he would probably had wide exposure all sorts of nasties no longer used. Nobody wore seatbelts, and everybody drank and thought nothing about driving home after several pints. Fatal accidents in factories, construction, military or on farms were part of the norm.

Life has moved on - many of things that our Grand parents lived are no longer used. Grand parents of previous generations died in their 50’s and 60’s. Many never made retirement age of 60 or 65.

I am all for free will, but not when the actions of one are detrimental to another. That’s how society works. A fatal accident in the work place is now the exception. We are not exposed to second hand tobacco smoke on a train or in the workplace. Nor do we expect our food to contain harmful products.

There is still a long way to go. But in shooting, technologies have moved on. We no longer need to use one of the most harmful products known to man, when we have alternatives that you know full well work as good as if not better than lead based ammunition.

And from the wider PR perspective, shooting in all forms has a lot of detractors. Removing lead from the argument takes away a major leg of the anti shooting agenda.
 
And from the wider PR perspective, shooting in all forms has a lot of detractors. Removing lead from the argument takes away a major leg of the anti shooting agenda.

this is nonsense , the anti shooting agenda see the removal of lead as an achievable goal on the way to a total ban of field sports/shooting and to think otherwise is naive in the extreme.

the anti shooting / anti blood sports will NEVER be happy until there is no hunting/shooting and they will use any means possible to achieve that end.

case in point , fox hunting ! did the ban stop the radical sabs harassing the people who are continuing to hunt within the law?
 
No but still farm crop from ground with lead and then we spray glysophate all over said crop and eat it ...šŸ¤”
Are we the only species who sprays poison all over our food then eat it ?

And thinking we remove lead then antis will leave us alone is absolute fantasy.....

They dont give a fu*k what we shoot....theh want gun and public ownership of guns gone immediately and will only be at peace once thats done


Paul
 
Science or no science, good or bad, the lead ban will be forced upon us and there will be sweet FA we can do about it.

We live in a society where the shooting community are the vast minority and we have an anti shooting government and media so what hope do we really have. Doesnt mean we shouldnt fight change but frankly the lead vs non lead argument is just going in circles. Apologies if that is "political"....
 
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