HACCP and 5 star hygiene rating

[Freezer Food]

Morning All

Im at the initial stages of setting up a small registered food business to sell butchered venison, burgers etc direct to the public and local businesses. I've emailed the local environmental health department (North East Derbyshire) for advice on what they require of me to achieve a 5 star hygiene rating and have spoken to an EHO. This isn't something this particular EHO has come across before so I suspect they're being overly cautious what is the general consensus?

My current set up is a chiller in an attached domestic garage for the in fir carcass, the carcass is the skinned on the garage hung from an electric hoist and taken direct into the kitchen where its broken down into joints, steaks, diced and mince. Its vacuum packed and then frozen all for my own domestic use. The waste is placed in a black bin liner and is disposed of in the domestic back bin.

I have my DSC1 (three years ago) and was booked on the large game meat hygiene course but DMQ seem to have changed tact and reverted to holders of the DSC1 having a trained hunter number. But I'm still waiting to find out whether I'll get a number retrospectively or I'll still need to do a course.
Ive got levels 1, 2 and 3 food hygiene certificates and level 2 HACCP (although this is a task yet to be started)

The EHO wants the garage lined with hygienic wipeable boards and the floor painted along with drainage. Im not sure how much how much of mess they think skinning a deer makes.
They won't accept the waste being disposed of in the domestic waste (I've explained its acceptable to disposed 20kg p/w in the black bin) even though this will only Roe deer and the very occasional Red and all on an infrequent basis. They require me to have a category 3 waste disposal bin.
I need a commercial vacuum packer which can be serviced (I've ordered a Buffalo 6ltr unit anyway as I need another)

If I need to line the garage I can do this as its not a massive expense and I can do it myself but I've bought venison before I started stalking from other stalkers with 5 star hygiene ratings who skin the deer in the garden!

Do you think my local authority are correct in their requirements as its seems to me that there's no joined up thinking between authorities.

 

[wytonpjs]

I have my DSC1 (three years ago) and was booked on the large game meat hygiene course but DMQ seem to have changed tact and reverted to holders of the DSC1 having a trained hunter number. But I'm still waiting to find out whether I'll get a number retrospectively or I'll still need to do a course.
Ive got levels 1, 2 and 3 food hygiene certificates and level 2 HACCP (although this is a task yet to be started)

The EHO wants the garage lined with hygienic wipeable boards and the floor painted along with drainage. Im not sure how much how much of mess they think skinning a deer makes.
They won't accept the waste being disposed of in the domestic waste (I've explained its acceptable to disposed 20kg p/w in the black bin) even though this will only Roe deer and the very occasional Red and all on an infrequent basis. They require me to have a category 3 waste disposal bin.
I need a commercial vacuum packer which can be serviced (I've ordered a Buffalo 6ltr unit anyway as I need another)

Do you think my local authority are correct in their requirements as its seems to me that there's no joined up thinking between authorities.

Quick answers:

• DMQ have not changed “back” - you only now get LGH certification if you do DSC2 or a standalone course such as those done by the NGO (you then have a different THN to you DMQ number). Unless your DSC1 certificate is blue, you do not have the LGH certificate.
• I skin in the garage and have a 5* rating - you will need to show that all of the hazards for that phase in you HACCP are adequately controlled
• The ability to dispose of ABP3 in domestic waste is enshrined in both EU and UK regulations well covered elsewhere on SD - your EHO is misinformed and talking bollocks

You are not alone in finding your EHO Team unknowledgeable of venison supply. Two years ago I presented an overview of UK requirements and covered the process from beginning to end with all of my LA inspectors at the request of their senior management as they didn’t have the knowledge and were seeing increasing numbers of “Fred’s in sheds”. They are used to large meat processors and packers where the risks are much higher and the standards you quote are very relevant (same actually goes for the BQWV scheme producers accreditation). I am a “Fred in a shed” and provided I stay at the scale I currently process (less than 50 carcasses) a year, follow my HACCP and keep meticulous records, they re content that my operation in the facilities you describe is low risk.

How you educate them will be a challenge.

 

[Grand Slam]

Not much more to add to that!

As already said, they are talking rubbish. I started my venison business from a kitchen and was given a 5* rating from the off.

HACCP
Traceability
Temp records

Job done

 

[Freezer Food]

Quick answers:

• DMQ have not changed “back” - you only now get LGH certification if you do DSC2 or a standalone course such as those done by the NGO (you then have a different THN to you DMQ number). Unless your DSC1 certificate is blue, you do not have the LGH certificate.
• I skin in the garage and have a 5* rating - you will need to show that all of the hazards for that phase in you HACCP are adequately controlled
• The ability to dispose of ABP3 in domestic waste is enshrined in both EU and UK regulations well covered elsewhere on SD - your EHO is misinformed and talking bollocks

You are not alone in finding your EHO Team unknowledgeable of venison supply. Two years ago I presented an overview of UK requirements and covered the process from beginning to end with all of my LA inspectors at the request of their senior management as they didn’t have the knowledge and were seeing increasing numbers of “Fred’s in sheds”. They are used to large meat processors and packers where the risks are much higher and the standards you quote are very relevant (same actually goes for the BQWV scheme producers accreditation). I am a “Fred in a shed” and provided I stay at the scale I currently process (less than 50 carcasses) a year, follow my HACCP and keep meticulous records, they re content that my operation in the facilities you describe is low risk.

How you educate them will be a challenge.

Thanks for the reply wytonpjs I'm booked on the LGH course (NGO) in July but my training provider called last week to inform me that he'd just been informed of a change and that new holders of DSC1 would get trained hunter as well. I'm waiting for a call back as to whether my course is going ahead, perhaps I've miss understood.

Regarding the rest I'll go back to the EHO and have another discussion as I suspect she's ready something online. Im sure its not im sure a 5 star rating isn't surmountable which my loacl authority I just need to gently inform and get them on side. I jsut want to get all my "ducks in a row" prior to registering.

Thanks again.

 

[Freezer Food]

Not much more to add to that!

As already said, they are talking rubbish. I started my venison business from a kitchen and was given a 5* rating from the off.

HACCP
Traceability
Temp records

Job done

Thanks Grand Slam, yes there seem to be hundreds of "Fred the sheds" around the country who's managed to achieve a 5 star rating. I'll get a HACCP put together and go back to them. Thanks for the reply

 

[wytonpjs]

Thanks for the reply wytonpjs I'm booked on the LGH course (NGO) in July but my training provider called last week to inform me that he'd just been informed of a change and that new holders of DSC1 would get trained hunter as well. I'm waiting for a call back as to whether my course is going ahead, perhaps I've miss understood.

Regarding the rest I'll go back to the EHO and have another discussion as I suspect she's ready something online. Im sure its not im sure a 5 star rating isn't surmountable which my loacl authority I just need to gently inform and get them on side. I jsut want to get all my "ducks in a row" prior to registering.

Thanks again.

From DMQ's Website (I do accept that things may have changed as the website does lag and their comms are not the best), but:

How do I become a Trained Hunter?​

​

DSC1 includes an assessment for the underpinning knowledge requirement for Trained Hunter covering Large Game only. DMQ Trained Hunter qualification is only achieved after successfully being awarded DSC2.​

And from DSC1 webpage:

Game Meat Hygiene: This has 40 multiple choice questions taken from a bank of Wild Game Meat Hygiene questions. These cover areas such as recognising normal and abnormal behaviour, common diseases, signs of ill-health, possible sources of contamination and hygienic working techniques. There are also food hygiene questions on risks to human health, use of veterinary medicines on wild deer, food safety and notifiable diseases. To pass, at least 32 questions must be answered correctly. Passing this module completes the theory element of the trained hunter status.​

 

[Freezer Food]

Thanks again wytonpjs I'll update you re the LGH course when my provider gets back to me.

 

[sauer]

Not much more to add to that!

As already said, they are talking rubbish. I started my venison business from a kitchen and was given a 5* rating from the off.

HACCP
Traceability
Temp records

Job done

Ill add to that ..
Allergen training
Labelling requirements including QUID statements ( burgers sausages etc)
Best before or use by dates etc
Vak packing awareness ( low oxygen environment botulism risk )

Paul

 

[75]

I don't know how you can get a trained hunter number retrospectively if you've not actually done the training. I thought it used to be covered under old DSC1 but was removed more recently, hence needing to do the LGH?

Anyway, I'll PM you with the name of the EHO at NE Derbyshire you need to talk to - I had no issues and he was broadly knowledgeable on what I was doing before we started. I've been through 3 inspections with NE Derbyshire now and not had any issues at all (with any of the 3 different EHOs). I don't have wipeable walls or floor, just a walk-in chiller in a stone floored barn. You are probably being "measured" against the wrong regs. The only applicable ones are the Wild Game Guide (obviously general food hygiene etc supersedes everything) but if they are trying to assess you against the regs used for restaurants, butchers or take-aways shops then they are barking up the wrong tree.

 

[75]

A few random thoughts (probably merging with your other thread too)...

Firstly, what are you trying to achieve by setting up the food business? This is key to everything really but you need to be honest about why you're doing it.

What you are trying to setup / achieve will influence what the EHO wants to see. For example, if you're processing decent numbers of deer, cutting them on site, making burgers and sausages, vac packing etc then the requirements will be very different from the ability to chill deer before selling them in the skin. There isn't a one-size fits all approach and they will assess you based on your particular intentions. The more processing you do (i.e. the further you get from an in-skin carcass), the more risk there is so the more onerous the requirements. As soon as you get into mincing, burgers and sausages the risks go up significantly and they will want suitable controls in place.

One of the key things EHO will be interested in is maintaining the cold-chain / temperature control. Suggesting stuff takes 12hrs from time of shot to get to a chiller will raise all sorts of red flags with them so unless you have refrigerated transport, bringing deer back from Scotland in a car / pickup to then enter the food chain isn't realistic or acceptable. They would generally expect you to weigh them in at a local dealer up there and so any processing would be for "local" deer.

Your posting history on here suggests you only got FAC and DSC1 about a year ago and, prior to that, had no stalking or centrefire experience so have you really got such a surplus of local deer after a year of stalking that you can't share amongst friends and family? And enough butchery experience to be able to do it professionally? Fair play if you've found yourself enough local ground already that you can shoot decent numbers but there aren't many folk in this area that can do that (you live 10 mins from me!) so I'm curious as to the driver to register with the LA (and the buggeration that goes with it!)?

Anyway, as I say, I'm very local and happy to have a chat and help however I can.

 

[Freezer Food]

Quick answers:

• DMQ have not changed “back” - you only now get LGH certification if you do DSC2 or a standalone course such as those done by the NGO (you then have a different THN to you DMQ number). Unless your DSC1 certificate is blue, you do not have the LGH certificate.
• I skin in the garage and have a 5* rating - you will need to show that all of the hazards for that phase in you HACCP are adequately controlled
• The ability to dispose of ABP3 in domestic waste is enshrined in both EU and UK regulations well covered elsewhere on SD - your EHO is misinformed and talking bollocks

You are not alone in finding your EHO Team unknowledgeable of venison supply. Two years ago I presented an overview of UK requirements and covered the process from beginning to end with all of my LA inspectors at the request of their senior management as they didn’t have the knowledge and were seeing increasing numbers of “Fred’s in sheds”. They are used to large meat processors and packers where the risks are much higher and the standards you quote are very relevant (same actually goes for the BQWV scheme producers accreditation). I am a “Fred in a shed” and provided I stay at the scale I currently process (less than 50 carcasses) a year, follow my HACCP and keep meticulous records, they re content that my operation in the facilities you describe is low risk.

How you educate them will be a challenge.

Morning

I've just had a call from my training provider re the trained hunter number, I'm told as of the 1st July anyone completing their DSC1 and who had watched a short video will achieve trained hunter status and will get the associated number. Stalkers in my position who completed there DSC1 but didn't get the trained hunter status will have to attend the LGH course.

 

[The Singing Stalker]

• The ability to dispose of ABP3 in domestic waste is enshrined in both EU and UK regulations well covered elsewhere on SD - your EHO is misinformed and talking bollocks

This bit made me laugh.

Nb, I do not have drainage in my garage. I explained that I use a dry system. Basically spray with disinfectant and wipe clean after. Blue paper goes into bin to be disposed of in domestic waste.
Also, I put trays in the bottom of my chiller, so that and blood drips into the trays which can be washed out in the sink. Ensures chiller is a lot cleaner.

Regarding waste. I also put in domestic waste, I also said that bones go to dog owners and/or used as foxing bait. No issues from my EHO. So most of the time, it may be skin that goes into the bin.

My lot are pretty well clued up, so that helped a lot.

One of the big things is traceability, keep good records of the when and where the deer is shot and any venison you sell, should be able to track back to the carcass.

 

[Chris Richardson]

• DMQ have not changed “back” - you only now get LGH certification if you do DSC2 or a standalone course such as those done by the NGO (you then have a different THN to you DMQ number). Unless your DSC1 certificate is blue, you do not have the LGH certificate

its not about money though is it ........

 

[Freezer Food]

A few random thoughts (probably merging with your other thread too)...

Firstly, what are you trying to achieve by setting up the food business? This is key to everything really but you need to be honest about why you're doing it.

What you are trying to setup / achieve will influence what the EHO wants to see. For example, if you're processing decent numbers of deer, cutting them on site, making burgers and sausages, vac packing etc then the requirements will be very different from the ability to chill deer before selling them in the skin. There isn't a one-size fits all approach and they will assess you based on your particular intentions. The more processing you do (i.e. the further you get from an in-skin carcass), the more risk there is so the more onerous the requirements. As soon as you get into mincing, burgers and sausages the risks go up significantly and they will want suitable controls in place.

One of the key things EHO will be interested in is maintaining the cold-chain / temperature control. Suggesting stuff takes 12hrs from time of shot to get to a chiller will raise all sorts of red flags with them so unless you have refrigerated transport, bringing deer back from Scotland in a car / pickup to then enter the food chain isn't realistic or acceptable. They would generally expect you to weigh them in at a local dealer up there and so any processing would be for "local" deer.

Your posting history on here suggests you only got FAC and DSC1 about a year ago and, prior to that, had no stalking or centrefire experience so have you really got such a surplus of local deer after a year of stalking that you can't share amongst friends and family? And enough butchery experience to be able to do it professionally? Fair play if you've found yourself enough local ground already that you can shoot decent numbers but there aren't many folk in this area that can do that (you live 10 mins from me!) so I'm curious as to the driver to register with the LA (and the buggeration that goes with it!)?

Anyway, as I say, I'm very local and happy to have a chat and help however I can.

Apologies I missed this for some reason I'm no longer getting notifications unless I refresh the page.

If may be more hassle than its worth but I'm only going through this process to essentially help pay for my hobby. I've very few fiends that would want or even know how to cook venison although they've all happily eaten numerous chilli's and moussaka's at my house and as they've never asked what meat it was I've not been inclined to tell them!
My son is a chef and the restaurant would happily take venison and put it on as an occasional special but they wouldn't want it in the fir. Numerous work colleagues have asked about buying venison from me. I'm a great believer if a jobs worth you might as well do it properly, I also want to stay on the right side of the law as I wouldn't wish to damage my professional reputation by having my name in the local paper for selling illegal game meat.

I've not been stalking/shooting long but I have access to land within 20mins of my house with a decent number of Roe. Anything coming back from Scotland would obviously be going in my own freezer for my own families consumption. I've currently a butchered Red hind in the freezer a Roe doe and a couple of CWD so its quite easy to have an excess of venison without really trying.

 

[The Singing Stalker]

it is a hobby for me also. I do have an accountant who sorts it for me, amongst other things, but, whilst you can offset, basically, it just nuffifies your tax that would go to HMRC. So for example, you sell £1,000 of venison and you buy a pickup for £50,000 just to go stalking, you can offset the £1,000, but HMRC would (probably) tell you to get stuffed on the £50,000.

 

[Deerkeeper2]

We know how you love to bang this drum but how can you say it’s about the money when it’s actually going back to the way it was?

its not about money though is it ........

 

[Freezer Food]

This bit made me laugh.

Nb, I do not have drainage in my garage. I explained that I use a dry system. Basically spray with disinfectant and wipe clean after. Blue paper goes into bin to be disposed of in domestic waste.
Also, I put trays in the bottom of my chiller, so that and blood drips into the trays which can be washed out in the sink. Ensures chiller is a lot cleaner.

Regarding waste. I also put in domestic waste, I also said that bones go to dog owners and/or used as foxing bait. No issues from my EHO. So most of the time, it may be skin that goes into the bin.

My lot are pretty well clued up, so that helped a lot.

One of the big things is traceability, keep good records of the when and where the deer is shot and any venison you sell, should be able to track back to the carcass.

Thanks, In fairness the EHO clearly hasn't skinned a deer so I can only assume they think they'll be blood over every surface after carrying out the process. They're concerned about the quantity of waste plus the smell but as I'll be only processing the occasional Roe I don't see this as an issue as I know what day the bin is collected and it waste can simply be placed in the bin the night before or first thing in the morning. Should there be more than 20kg which I very much doubt it can always be temporarily stored in a separate freezer until the next collection.

 

[The Singing Stalker]

Thanks, In fairness the EHO clearly hasn't skinned a deer so I can only assume they think they'll be blood over every surface after carrying out the process. They're concerned about the quantity of waste plus the smell but as I'll be only processing the occasional Roe I don't see this as an issue as I know what day the bin is collected and it waste can simply be placed in the bin the night before or first thing in the morning. Should there be more than 20kg which I very much doubt it can always be temporarily stored in a separate freezer until the next collection.

I keep mine in a separate freezer as bin men come every 2 weeks. Just write it in your plan and then you are covered… I believe.

 

[wytonpjs]

I keep mine in a separate freezer as bin men come every 2 weeks. Just write it in your plan and then you are covered… I believe.

Sadly , every 3 weeks around here now

 

[Chris Richardson]

We know how you love to bang this drum but how can you say it’s about the money when it’s actually going back to the way it was?

why change then ?