Which shotgun made in England should I choose?

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NorHunt

Well-Known Member
Supporter
...bare with me gents...🙏

I'm trying to find a shotgun made in England.
Side by side.
Straight stock.
Caliber 12/70, or 12/65 if that is the last option...

Which shotguns are made in England and are good enough for clay training and grouse hunting?



My budget is £1000 for the shotgun,
export, VAT and tax is in addition.


Thanks.
 
There are lots of very good vintage box locks for sale within your budget. A good English sidelock will probably be beyond it, unless you are prepared to spend more later on fixing its problems (off face, lifting rib, etc).
IMO, it is harder to shoot a side-by-side gun that doesn't fit you properly than an over-and-under, so you should look with an awareness of the length of pull appropriate to your build and shooting style. Cast and pitch can be dealt with later, but a too-short stock will require an extension piece and full refinishing. (Slip-on pads come a very poor second to a proper extension.)
Note that the proper length of pull for a side-by-side gun is often slightly shorter (by about 1/8" to 1/4") than for an over-and-under.
 
Last edited:
Hello. You should look at what are the likely cartridges that you can find in Norway and eliminate all guns that won't chamber such. My advice is that means only look at possibly 70mm chambers which in English made guns will either be the Webley 700 (or the very same gun but marketed by Evans, of Jeffery or whoever) or what might have been called a "pigeon gun" or a "duck gun" such as the Brent sold by Thomas Bland or similar sold by Midland Gun.

Next look at length of stock and choke borings. The nearer the gun you are buying is to what you want in terms of stock length and choke boring the less money you will have to spend to get it to match what you want. But note that if the match isn't exact and you do want the match exact that the cost alter a stock and alter the chokes will be not cheap. So if you wanted "improved and quarter" could you make do with "quarter and quarter" or even "quarter and half"?

Buy a gun in good order not one that requires work. With your budget of £1000 you pretty much have the pick of the marketplace in regards to boxlock ejectors. My advice? Contact a reputable auction house that already exports to Norway and tell them your budget and your specification and let them advise you what they have going under the hammer at their next sale. That a business already exports to Norway will save you much bother!
 
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The first thing you want to attend to is not the maker's name (a great many guns were made by large-scale manufacturers in Birmingham and then sent off to the "names" for finishing). Rather, you want clean bores, ribs and hooks that are still firmly attached (so that the barrel set rings like a bell when tapped with a teaspoon), breech ends that are securely on the face (so the barrels don't wobble when the gun is shaken), reliable sears, and a stock without cracks, or sponginess from absorbing excess gun oil.
Fortunately, there are plenty of such guns about.
The next thing to look for, IMO, is the quality of the small parts. A well finished safety slide, fore-end release and top lever will tell you a great deal about how much the maker cared about their work. Engraving catches the eye, but that is its job. The person who engraved the gun did not make it.
 
Mr. Gain said:
Engraving catches the eye, but that is its job. The person who engraved the gun did not make it.
Click to expand...
I like that! And never a truer word spoken. Engraving and figure in the stock are the "fancy packaging" if you like. As an analogy the Diana grade and Midas grade of the old, now classic, Browning B25 over and under were beneath that mechanically in fact absolutely no different from their baseline A1 grade B25.

But...

But the lesson there is that for the B25 the extra engraving added finesse to what was a sound well made quality product constructed from quality materials and with skill and precision. On another maker's guns the extra engraving masks what underneath is low grade material, shoddy workmanship and poor reliability.
 
Thank you gentlemen.
Many good points and experiences in what you guys have written!👍👌✌️.

I have two shotguns available to buy on the Norwegian used marked:
William Rodgester for 15000,- NOK
Webley Scott for 20000,- NOK

The shotguns are maybe worth it.
But Norway is a high cost country where everybody thinks they are selling gold...🙆.
I have the opportunity to have drive and see both guns, and obviously that is what I need to do after you guys explaining the difference in s/s and o/u...🫡.

Regards
Frans
 
Both prices are silly daft. Presently the Webley 700 types are making but £400-500 maximum at UK auctions. Look at Holt's website and you will see over three hundred boxlock ejectors of which maybe but fifty will be suitable to your stock length needs. May I ask why you don't consider an AYA No4?
 
enfieldspares said:
Both prices are silly daft. Presently the Webley 700 types are making but £400-500 maximum at UK auctions. Look at Holt's website and you will see over three hundred boxlock ejectors of which maybe but fifty will be suitable to your stock length needs. May I ask why you don't consider an AYA No4?
Click to expand...
...as I said... 'selling gold'...🙄
I hope I can give them a reasonable bid, but most likely they will be offended...

I just would like to buy a shotgun made in England, since the stile is for me typical English.
No offence intended.
Nothing wrong with the Aya No4!✌️

Export, VAT, shipping and currency is not making this project sensible...😪
 
NorHunt said:
...bare with me gents...🙏

I'm trying to find a shotgun made in England.
Side by side.
Straight stock.
Caliber 12/70, or 12/65 if that is the last option...

Which shotguns are made in England and are good enough for clay training and grouse hunting?



My budget is £1000 for the shotgun,
export, VAT and tax is in addition.


Thanks.
Click to expand...
Loads.
We specialise in named boxlocks from England and Scotland

Starting around the £6-700 mark for Branded "trade guns" - tend to be Dickson, Martin, Fraser, Allan, Ingram, Dougall etc but built on Birmingham actions (usually Webley&Scott)
The geniune "built" named guns tend to be significantly finer with much more ornate and highcoverage engraving, ornate fences, sculpted actions/levers etc (Martin, Dougall, Ingram, Holland, Cogswell, Dickson, Denton, Holloway, Hellis, Henry, Harkom etc)
These run from High hundreds into low thousands

All usually 2 1/2" with 28-32" barrels, chokes vary massively from cyl/cyl through full/full and everything inbetween

Don't confuse "Nitro Proof" with "Can't use steel"
We carry four brands of standard performance, 2 1/2", steel cartridges for clay and game that can be used in ANY Nitro Prooved gun.

As an aside.....
We are about to prove the choke issue is a non issue with a test barrel covered in strain guages from breech to muzzle
I intend to demonstrate what I believe to be true

The pressure drop from breech to muzzle is significant - measured by Winchester in the 70s - and published in numerous other places thereafter
Winchester W-W lab data on three different 12 ga factory loads
  • 0.36T - 700 psi @ 26"
  • 0.27T - 620 psi @ 28"
  • 0. 27T 605 psi @ 29".


Article in the (UK) The Journal of The Forensic Science Soc. - Auth. Victor Drake
Units Brit Long Ton (2240#/T) Radial Lead Crusher Method (One Long Ton per Square inch = 2,240 psi)
  • Max 2.8T @1" from breech
  • 2.5T @6" from breech (5600 psi)
  • 0.5T @14" (1120 psi
  • 0.25T@20" (560psi)
  • 0.1T @30" (224psi)

Burrard The Modern Shotgun , Ch. Pressure
  • 2.8T@1"
  • 0.36T@20"
  • 0.2 T@30"

The steel is travelling in a cup of plastic or "biowad" contruction usually at least 0.5-0.75mm thick - RADIALLY 1-1.5mm as a diameter measurement
The contriction of the bore to a full choke is 0.035" or 0.889mm
I am not convinced that the compression of relatively soft plastic/synthetic twce the thickness of the constriction of the choke of the is significant enough or restricts the repacking of the shot in the cup to drive muzzle pressures high enough with a full choke to be of structural concern

But we will see!!
 
The price range you quote should see you obtaining a very nice gun. I would bear in mind that most cartridges are now 70mm (2 and 3/4" ), and because of steel I would not buy anything which has more than half choke in either barrel. Hope you find the right gun for you.
 
Edinburgh Rifles said:
Loads.
We specialise in named boxlocks from England and Scotland

Starting around the £6-700 mark for Branded "trade guns" - tend to be Dickson, Martin, Fraser, Allan, Ingram, Dougall etc but built on Birmingham actions (usually Webley&Scott)
The geniune "built" named guns tend to be significantly finer with much more ornate and highcoverage engraving, ornate fences, sculpted actions/levers etc (Martin, Dougall, Ingram, Holland, Cogswell, Dickson, Denton, Holloway, Hellis, Henry, Harkom etc)
These run from High hundreds into low thousands

All usually 2 1/2" with 28-32" barrels, chokes vary massively from cyl/cyl through full/full and everything inbetween

Don't confuse "Nitro Proof" with "Can't use steel"
We carry four brands of standard performance, 2 1/2", steel cartridges for clay and game that can be used in ANY Nitro Prooved gun.

As an aside.....
We are about to prove the choke issue is a non issue with a test barrel covered in strain guages from breech to muzzle
I intend to demonstrate what I believe to be true

The pressure drop from breech to muzzle is significant - measured by Winchester in the 70s - and published in numerous other places thereafter
Winchester W-W lab data on three different 12 ga factory loads
  • 0.36T - 700 psi @ 26"
  • 0.27T - 620 psi @ 28"
  • 0. 27T 605 psi @ 29".


Article in the (UK) The Journal of The Forensic Science Soc. - Auth. Victor Drake
Units Brit Long Ton (2240#/T) Radial Lead Crusher Method (One Long Ton per Square inch = 2,240 psi)
  • Max 2.8T @1" from breech
  • 2.5T @6" from breech (5600 psi)
  • 0.5T @14" (1120 psi
  • 0.25T@20" (560psi)
  • 0.1T @30" (224psi)

Burrard The Modern Shotgun , Ch. Pressure
  • 2.8T@1"
  • 0.36T@20"
  • 0.2 T@30"

The steel is travelling in a cup of plastic or "biowad" contruction usually at least 0.5-0.75mm thick - RADIALLY 1-1.5mm as a diameter measurement
The contriction of the bore to a full choke is 0.035" or 0.889mm
I am not convinced that the compression of relatively soft plastic/synthetic twce the thickness of the constriction of the choke of the is significant enough or restricts the repacking of the shot in the cup to drive muzzle pressures high enough with a full choke to be of structural concern

But we will see!!
Click to expand...
Very comprehensive summary. Thank you.

I often get asked by people if they can use this or that steel shot cartridge out of their old shotgun.
My reply usually lays out the regular recommendations (i.e. no more than 3.2mm from thighter than 1/2 choke). Then I tell them that shotguns that are officially not fit for high velocity steel shot are hardly marketable anyway. So what‘s there to loose? I tell them to shoot whatever they like.. If the gun doesn’t survive, nothing is really lost in terms of value and they can still buy a new shotgun when/if this happens.
 
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