DSC2 - Wild vs. Park Debate

[Sharpie]

well , I did level 2 in one day on deer in a 500 acre park , stalk one larder it go back stalk another . They may be park deer but their not cattle .

Jolly good. Sounds like great "stalking".

 

[Sharpie]

if anyone thinks a DSC2 park cull is easy I will personally pay for that person to do one, on the condition that a proper stalk is performed and the PCs are fulfilled including the gralloch..there are a lot of armchair experts in stalking.

I would like to take you up on that offer. The sooner the better, presumably August 1 would be the earliest date, otherwise November 1 would give the best opportunities.

Please let me know when I am expected, to give me time to apply for my portfolio.

Looking forwards to this.

PS I don't own an armchair, and I'm quite handy with a knife.

Cheers,

Jonathan

 

[mel]

Most industry qualifications turn out like this. Soon the industry advertisements will say "DSC level 2 in 2 days or free re-stalk. 98% pass rate guaranteed". Anyone in the IT industry will be well aware of this situation, at the end of the day they are a business looking for customers (which equals profit). Others will follow.

There's probably people telling customers, "the deer are normally here almost every day, I'm surprised they're not here today" - is this any worse from an income generating point of view?

As for the DSC L2 - It's 3 stalks, 3 shots (or at least 3 that hit and knock a deer over*), 3 grallochs and some lardering with some AW questions and a final telephone chat**. Length of time served on the ground is not part of the qualification. As people will know, some times there are people that have done the same job for years that are crap and there are those that have done it for a few weeks that are far better and have far fewer bad habits since they have only learned the right way to do something. It's like that for any industry (and I do acknowledge that there are those out there that have done it for many many years and are truely experts in their field that should be respected for both skill and knowledge).

Just my 2p worth
Mel

* Totally missed the first deer I poked the bullet chucker at on the first witnessed stalk, just nerves at been assessed by someone I didn't know (I'm sure I'm not the only one that ever missed a deer).
** My telephone chat was great, the Assessor was very interesting. I could have chatted for hours with the chap even though I knew some of the chat was actually 'hidden' questions. Pity he had to go, I had a shed load more to talk about.

 

[ytene]

Sharpie, I will re-iterate the easiest bit MAY seem to be the stalks ,but what will not go in your favour on the strength of your declared deer culled numbers is the experience needed for your evidence to be sufficient to satisfy the ASSESSORS at the next level,you state that you feel that you are ready for DSC2 .....now is the time to reflect on this ...experience is gathered over a few years and never stops.I have been stalking for many years but have never shot a CWD, so I cannot claim any experience with that species..see what I mean? Have you shot only roe, or fallow or sika,or red, or muntjac, or all of them ? From highseats or stalked on foot,on the hill or in woodland...it is all experience and makes you a safer, more knowledgable stalker, as someone once said you may have say 10 years experience the trick is to avoid having 1years experience 10 times !

 

[trouble]

Jolly good. Sounds like great "stalking".

its not easy in a park , if they spook they group up then the hard work starts , on top of that the big house is in the middle of the park , now you think thats easy ? Just so you know , while at school i helped the keepers doing park culls , forest culls , larder work , prepping trophys , ive been keepering for 30 years now and ive stalked all types of deer in this country and boar in europe . I have no axe to grined with you but i still dont think 12 deer is enough , its a start but not enough . As for doing level 2 in a park in one day , it got the job done , and after shooting and gralloching humnderds of deer i think i earned it

 

[Sharpie]

Deleted, because it was indeed of descending into a bit of a bunfight.

 

[sikamalc]

As I have said DMQ are aware of most if not all the fenced in areas containing deer and if they do not deem the area sufficiently big enough or it is registered as a farm it is unlikely the candidate will be excepted for a pass by the asessment centre.

This is what we were told at the meeting in Fordingbridge last year.

As for culling in a fenced area, it can be difficult............. in as much as you have a large number of deer and trying to find the right cull beast without hitting another in the herd is usually the main issue.

Furthermore this thread seems to be decending into a bit of a bun fight!! If you are thinkinbg of taking your Level 2 the onus is on you as the candidate to proove you are competent, and the AW is there to report back and sign off what he has seen. It is the assessor who will decide if you are good enough to pass. Taking 6 deer will more than likely NOT get you a pass. There is some good advice from other members and I would advice anyone thinking of taking Level 2 to take this advice on board.

ATB

Sikamalc

 

[2130martin]

It depends on what you are testing surely. The ability to stalk into the animal and the clean and safe gralloch can be achieved. Now I did not say I agree with it or not , but jelen are working within the rules. If the rules need changing then Jelen are not the people to speak to and question, that comes down to DMQ. If there is a problem and the DSC is industry led then DMQ need to be taken to task.

With the NVQ system it was simple, Basic knowledge level 1, assist with level 2,, and manage level 3. When it was part of the Gamekeeping level 2 and 3 you could not get it unless you were doing the job.




It was also a nationally recognised qualification not a certificate.

Mark

+1,Jelen dont make the rules!!.............another angle could be that it should only be done on a piece of land where neither the paid guide/AW or the stalker have been before,so they can demonstrate there recci skills right the way through to lardering.

 

[ytene]

Sharpie of course the offer is valid and I am very serious about the need to be prepared for DMQ2..NOW YOUR BIT....you have to state here that you think Park Culling IS EASY that was the basis of the offer, not for you to have a freebie,also you haven,t stated why YOU want DSC2?I thank my colleagues on this site who are aware of the reality of park culls as stated above for their input...the offer was an opportunity to experience a park cull..I would not be doing witnessed stalks with you as I prefer to have some affinity with the candidate prior to and during the process..it helps both parties complete the process to a successful conclusion. So you can have your gauntlet back!

 

[Mr Lewis]

Stone ,I think the driving force for Level 2 comes from the candidates after all it is a voluntary scheme at the moment...if an employer insists on it that is different to a stalker that needs it to take a lease etc. no system is perfect..but the German system for example is very stringent as is the Swedish and others...the candidates can EITHER take their stalks in the normal stalking environment or choose to do a park session with Jelen/or other providers as long as the PCs are fulfilled it is not an issue...if anyone thinks a DSC2 park cull is easy I will personally pay for that person to do one, on the condition that a proper stalk is performed and the PCs are fulfilled including the gralloch..there are a lot of armchair experts in stalking...but the DMQ is a democratic process where candidates vote with their own time and money...the most that I have heard a candidate paying to achieve DMQ Level 2 is £1000,but that was some years ago . The DSC 1 remains the technical phase,the DSC2 the practical phase ,to take either remains a personal choice...however I know that Hampshire Police do not accept initial grants of FAC for deer on the basis of DSC1 only without having relevant experience/and or a mentor deemed acceptable to the Police...that is fact and is the thin end of the wedge,more and more landowners are insisting on evidence of competence and big insurance cover...the standard for deer training must come within the deer industry not led by forces outside of it, if providers of training can enhance the skill of each stalker by structured development,like a CPD...is that a negative step?

Ok you are on I will do a DSC2 Park Cull as I think it is easy

 

[6pointer]

Park Deer are not wild they are fenced in .But it is up to DMQ to sort this out they were the ones who allowed it. The problems were that some of the people who first administered the Lev two done so from a park and they were 100% backed up by the then DMQ Board some were even on the board. Dave Stretton and Peter Pursglove spring to mind.
IMHO Any one that dose there Lev 2 in a park are kidding there selves on. DMQ NEED TO GROW A SET AND SORT THIS NOW OR THE QUALIFICATION WILL DIE.

 

[al4x1]

so the bit people are worried about is the stalking part surely that is the bit that is in effect the simplest and least consequential, if you're crap at it then you don't tend to shoot many. Isn't the main important thing being how the deer is shot and then the process into the larder? at which point park deer are well deer.

 

[User00001]

I have no opinion as to whether or not this is good value, that is for Jelen and the customer to decide.

What I do know is that anyone who thinks park culling is easy is kidding themselves, I shoot quite a few each year and I've never seen one yet that has 'lined up and waited to be shot'. The park culling issue is almost like a secret code amoungst professional stalkers, you can tell within seconds of talking to someone, or reading what they write, whether or not they have ever 'walked the walk'.

If someone comes to me looking to shoot thier first deer I will take them roe or muntjac stalking rather than into the park every time.

There are three factors that decide how easy or hard a persons journey through the DSC2 process are:

1. Are they a competent stalker?

2. Are there enough deer on the ground to give a reasonable chance of sucess and and allow them to demonstrate their competence?

3. A little bit of luck; we all have good days and bad days but its handy to have a good day when you've got an AW with you!

On a slightly different note, I think that it is time for the admin team to devise a way that trade members can advertise a product or service without having it pulled to pieces. The only way I would ever consider advertising on here again is if the thread is locked imeadiately so it becomes, in effect, 'read only'.

Glyn.

 

[6pointer]

Glyn 1 What you are saying is let remove the forum members from having an opinion. I did ask that my self regards the Urban deer guide and was told by Admin that was not an option the site members would be able to give there opinions and long may that continue.

 

[User00001]

Glyn 1 What you are saying is let remove the forum members from having an opinion. I did ask that my self regards the Urban deer guide and was told by Admin that was not an option the site members would be able to give there opinions and long may that continue.

Sorry, not sure where you've got the idea that I would wish to curtail people opinions. I simply suggest that trade adverts are exactly that, an advert like in a magazine or notice board. If people want to question whats on offer then surely the best thing to do is contact the advertiser, if they want to comment on the service that they have recieved, good or bad, then start another thread.

I'm only speaking from experience, I advertised on here and, despite clearly saying please contact me by telephone or email, lots of people sent private messages, some of which were recieved, some weren't. It became unmanageable. If I didn't check the website for a few days people moaned. Don't get me wrong, I'm grateful for the bookings that we recieved through SD, but I found it to be too high maintenance in its current form. If adverts were simply that, maybe grouped by region/area, then I would again take up trade membership. Obviously, if I'm the only person who has found this, then its not a big problem and I'll go back under my rock!

Glyn.

 

[Sharpie]

Sharpie of course the offer is valid and I am very serious about the need to be prepared for DMQ2..NOW YOUR BIT....you have to state here that you think Park Culling IS EASY that was the basis of the offer

You have got me there, I will not make such a statement as I know very well how skilled a task it can be.

I've been privileged to accompany Glyn 1 during a park cull and witness what is involved.

Glyn has also guided me on several stalks, and I hope will do so again in the future.

It is my intention to apply for my portfolio in the Autumn and take my time to progress through it. I don't realistically expect to satisfy every PC perfectly on every stalk, first time. So in that respect you could say that I am not fully prepared.

I would have valued the opportunity that you offered. Best regards.

 

[ytene]

Sharpie thank you for your reply your candour is appreciated. Tony

 

[siamsteve1968]

Deleted for obvious reasons.

 

[ytene]

siamsteve that was a tad below the belt .Care to expand, the former was heresay,the next point requires explanation....I am sure Mike will also need your clarification on this...over to your good self...

 

[AllThingsShooting]

Just a question but couldnt you get signed off in one day if you went upto Scotland on a hind cull? If this is the case then what is the problem!

Clearly if you sign up to this 2 day scheme and aren't upto standard you'll be wasting your money as the Witness isn't simply going sign you off because you turned up!

There seems to a lot of digs at Jelen here for running a business, of course they are going to run offers, of course they are going to promote stalking and having seen them working up close I can assure anyone that they are doing their best to help stalkers like me improve and develop.

They are investing a lot of time and effort in sharing their knowledge and skill with others and asking nothing in return. How about we all stop complaining about what others are doing and start supporting each other. There are some amazing people on this forum, sikamalc, yorkshireroestalker and many others. .who are regular contributors to this site, and without them we wouldnt have this fantastic resource..

My dad once said "if you haven't got anything nice to say don't say anything at all"!!!