Fair Pricing Structure?

[jamross65]

I have started this thread following a conversation I had recently with a guest, regarding the pricing structure of stalking they had bought over the years.

Firstly, this is not a 'dig' at anyone, but as someone who does take out guests it has become obvious, especially with folk relatively new to the sport, that some have paid for days that later appeared not to be quite the 'deal' they thought they had been getting and have in some cases really been sickened by the experience. That cannot be right surely?

I do not want to introduce any names and I wholeheartedly accept that if a deal is struck before stalking then there is no complaint afterwards. This is more of an opportunity to discuss some generic pricing , (not the varying costs of medal class trophy stalking) and hear why some justify doing it the way they do. It is also not an opportunity for me to say 'my way is right and yours is wrong...'. But there are issues I feel are worthy of mention, especially when some on the SD appear to abhor anyone making too much of a living from taking out paying guests or think there are secrets in pricing which result in huge unexpected bills!

I will offer my own example. I charge £75 for a whole day out on sika hinds and only charge a further £75 if any are shot, regardless of it being one or more. Minimum for the day £75, maximum but only if successful £150. That is clear and I would think not over the odds. Some may be cheaper, some more expensive but I think with the chances of success it is a fair price.

There are a lot of beginners on this site and I hope this thread will be seen as a point of reference in what should be a guide to a 'fair' price in obtaining a days stalking, but it must also be said that distance and perhaps overnight accomodation if necessary also need to be factored in when pricing. It is not an advert for me or anyone else on here because that is taken care of elsewhere by trade membership and by use of the PM's.

The example that prompted this was hearing about a days stalking that is split into a stalking fee and then a shot fee. That is how I price mine and think it is a fair approach. Others do it differently and that is a matter for the guest to decide on as to which suits them best. If someone pays for a morning stalk and a beast is shot, then that guest has the option to carry on for another beast if any are available. Surely that does not mean though that another outing fee is applicable because the shot has been taken and that means the outing is over and the day effectively has to start again, at least not in my opinion and especially when after female deer. I was really taken aback that some fees are applied in this vein and can imagine what a guest would say if they got their beast 5 minutes after arriving and on the way home an hour later.

For me an outing (on Sika stags) lasts about 3-4hrs, morning and evening, but perhaps all day on the hinds though as the days are short. If during that outing 1, 2, 3 or whatever number of beasts offer a shot then the only fee in my eyes that is due is the shot fee, either per beast if on mature stags or for any number of hinds, not a seperate outing fee as well applied to each beast.

On a personal note though, I am getting really fed up of hearing about inexperienced new stalkers being taken a loan of by some out to make a killing, although that comment is not directed at the above example.

But without a mentor introducing them to the sport how can beginners know any better? They can ask on here but many do not for fear of showing their ignorance (not meant in an insulting way), so hence the reason for this thread.

 

[Cyres]

Excellent and seems reasonable.

What happens if the client wants the carcass ? charges?

May well try and see if I can make a day with you when I come up to see my parents.

D

 

[jamross65]

Excellent and seems reasonable.

What happens if the client wants the carcass ? charges?

May well try and see if I can make a day with you when I come up to see my parents.

D

I think like most others the venison is offered to guests at game dealer rates. This year it is up at £1.40 per pound (happy days!!!). Although lets be honest, that is just getting towards the true worth of the meat!!!

 

[6pointer]

I think it is a fair post and do feel that the Trade members who take others out would benefit from clear easy to understand pricing. I also heard of a chap who shot a beast early into a stalk and was told that's it for the day if he dose not pay again (muntjac was the target animal) As long as the client knows this is what happens then fine if not then there could be problems. I would need to travel hundreds of miles to have a go at the Reeves and would not be happy if it was all over in the first 5 mins with a quick deer happening but hey. Clear and Transparent is what its about.

 

[barongcw]

May be you should produce a template contract. SD readers can then comment and if generally approved it could be published on this site.

 

[BunnyDoom]

Thanks Jamross, good thread and interesting to see your pricing structure - there seem to be a number of different opionions on the subject of pricing, and as someone who pays for a the majority of my stalking I'm always interested to see what stalkers are charging and how they justify it.

As a paying guest I really like to see transparency in pricing - i.e. £75-100 covers stalkers time (x hours), fuel, etc. the shot costs £x (and includes the head?) and is a bonus to stalker for putting you onto the beast. Stalker sells the meat to the game dealer for £x so if guest wants to take it then that's what he/she pays too.

£75 for a days stalking seems fair to me - that's a lot of hours and only becomes a reasonable rate per hour if you get your client a shot. Personally I feel a bit robbed when I pay someone £100 for 3-4 hours and don't shoot anything, and if I had shot something it would cost me another £50 per animal. That's £25-30 per hour not to shoot something, or £40-50 per hour to shoot something!
I work 8-12 hours a day and I don't make £400-600 per day. Lets say "John Doe" worked as a stalker for 4 hours in the morning and 4 hours in the evening and took £400 per day, which would mean he'd only have to work a 2 days a week to earn £38,400 per year, and another day per week to cover a lease on the land and expenses (£19,200). That's 3 days a week to earn a salary that's very good for somone working 5 days a week, assuming the land's good enough to justify that rate and a deer gets shot every outing or a decent number of trophy's every year.

Your pricing structure (if I understand it correcly) means £7.50 an hour/£75 per day (base on 10 hours of sunlight) if you don't get your clients a shot, or £15 an hour/£150 per day if you do. Trophy fee's are a going rate and up to the shooter. So when I guestimate your expenses I can see that you're claiming a reasonable salary if you put your clients onto deer (though there's no guarantee). To me as a client that gives me confidence as obviously you're not going to price your time in such a way unless you're confident of your own skills and experience... which is what clients pay for. This does of course all assume you're a full-time stalker.

My point isn't to say stalkers shouldn't earn decent money, it's saying that clients with half a brain do feel hard done by when they work out the hourly rate in terms of their/our understanding of working in a job. Though again I appreciate that people/me who've never worked as stalkers probably don't understand everything that's involved... hence I'm going to mention the term "transparent pricing structure".

Obviously though it's down to the client to agree on a rate they find acceptable before the outing, and no whinging about it afterwards - but for newcomers to the sport it's not always clear that there is a top and bottom end of prices.

 

[floyd]

I agree with all the above, and I think the difference comes down to whether you are stalking for trophies or for cull/doe stalking.

I completely agree with Jamross's scheme of charging a 'success' fee, it puts the onus on the stalker to 'produce the goods'. Where it tends to get expensive, is when you have individual 'trophy' fees per beast on does/and cull bucks, unfortunately this pushes these days out of my affordability, and can lead to having an outing curtailed or an unexpected bill at the end of the stalk.

I would prefer to see a fixed cost for culling/does stalking.

How many times do we hear of the growing population of deer being attributed to the lack of doe/hind control, maybe its understandable when it becomes unaffordable for many.

I stalk a syndicate in Scotland, but there are other times/days when I could go stalking, at £100-150 a day, but not knowing if a day on the does will cost £150 or £300, or if I shoot 1 in the 1st 5 minutes then is the drive/fuel etc worth the cost, is a gamble I am not prepared to take.

 

[LuckyEddie]

That seems good to me - at those prices I could afford to indulge myself a stalk for a sika so there's hope for me yet.
A lot easier to justify to the missus than the prices for a red stag

Ed

 

[al4x1]

Fundamentally I think it depends how many deer are on the ground, I also tend to mostly go for cull stalking and the last one was £75 an outing but no shot fee, morning stalk no joy but evening 2 roe bucks. No increase in cost they had more venison to sell and more of their cull plan done and I didn't have to be concerned about cost as that was it. I also go occasionally where there is a cheaper stalk and a shot fee and though it can mean you've spent what you want in the first 5 minutes the costs are clear before and its then your choice to go after another one knowing the cost. Really its just about terms and conditions being laid out well so both sides know, the issue comes more with trophy stalking where the costs mount up fast but I've always been offered the shot and told what the cost would be up front.

 

[jamross65]

I just want to point out that there are very good cheaper options to me as well and only mention my method as no doubt soemone would have eventually asked!!!

As an example I have suggested to a few folk who have contacted me, to get in touch with one of the site owners who I know has superb ground up north and allows unaccompanied stalking, which to someone with a bit of experience may be more attractive. I am trying to highlight there are lots of options that can be tailored to suit both terrain, likelyhood of success and therefore costs. Worth really looking around and comparing.

Not sure about a template Baron, only because there are so many variables out there it would be too difficult covering all of them, some of which may be dictated by the owner of the ground and part of the deal with the stalker taking out guests.

 

[jamross65]

Fundamentally I think it depends how many deer are on the ground, I also tend to mostly go for cull stalking and the last one was £75 an outing but no shot fee, morning stalk no joy but evening 2 roe bucks. No increase in cost they had more venison to sell and more of their cull plan done and I didn't have to be concerned about cost as that was it. I also go occasionally where there is a cheaper stalk and a shot fee and though it can mean you've spent what you want in the first 5 minutes the costs are clear before and its then your choice to go after another one knowing the cost. Really its just about terms and conditions being laid out well so both sides know, the issue comes more with trophy stalking where the costs mount up fast but I've always been offered the shot and told what the cost would be up front.

A pal of mine who I put stalkers onto for the roe had a guest out a couple of years ago on the does. The guy shot 10 for the day and from memory it cost him less than £100!!!

 

[bogtrotter]

Your pricing for a day at the Hinds seems fair enough and I would think its pretty much average

Should mention on Red deer on the hill no morning and evening outings its a full day on the hill, that would normally mean at stag time coming off the hill by 4.00 pm or at least not starting a stalk after that time, if you were already on a stalk you would continue, you don't want to be caught out in the dark trying to drag a beast off, it can still happen with 4.PM as a cut off point but better not to take chances.

This is something thats often brought up by novices why we are we stopping so early 4.PM stop on the hill can still often be 8.PM back at the larder.

In the winter probably 3.00 pm depending on how far out the hill you are and also the weather.

On Red Hinds we charged by the day no outing fee or kill fee whether you shot one hind or six the cost was the same, most of our days were sold in blocks we did not have many single days, so if you took a week and had one blank day in the week tough you made up for it on your other days.


If you were one of the very few who took a single day and had a blank you would be offered another day free of charge.


Stags were normally let by the week Monday to Friday you specified the number of stags you wished to take for week, but we catered mainly for groups so a group of five might come with the expectation of a stag each for the week we had three stalkers and three individual beats available so 15 stags a week was possible at peak time i.e. in the rut.

No outing fee you payed for the number of stags you wished to shoot Saturday was kept back for if you had not
got your expected number by the Friday.


If you had reached your number before the end of the week it was possible purchase additional stags if you wished, if you did not get your number by the end of the week you were refunded for the short fall provided certain conditions were met.


Missed shots would be counted, failure to take the shot without a reasonable excuse when put in the position where the shot was possible would be counted, in both cases only if further opportunities did not present then selves the above would only be taken into consideration if there was a shortfall at the end of the week.

Accommodation was available to suit clients needs, lodge with full facility's including cook, or self catering cottages and of course the clients could make their own arrangements with Hotels or B&Bs

Roe deer completely, different Bucks outing fee plus trophy fees, Does only ever charged an outing fee no additional charges

You mention accommodation costs rather than make bookings for clients, I tend to give them details of local accommodation and let them make their own bookings, I have been caught out to many times by making bookings for clients who have failed to turn up have then been left in the position that I need to make some kind payment to the establishment, as I might need to use them again.

Tried to give an idea of how pricing is done have not given actual prices, hope those reading will understand why

I don't advertise on SD for clients for Roe so my prices are not really relevant.

The Red deer stalking I mention is now under new management and I am no longer involved so I think it would be unprofessional on my part to quote prices.

 

[Gazza]

I find it hard to believe that if you are in the market for paid stalking even as novice you cannot ascertain the exact cost of what you are seeking prior to going out. Surely it is a simple matter of informing the stalker of what you ideally want, adding in the what ifs and asking the price. As said because a stalker charges more for his services/shot taken than yourself it does not make you right and him wrong. Is it your findings that clients are being conned in some way. Is there mileage in listing questions that a client should ask of the stalker to ascertain costs so that an informed decision can be made. There is always the possibilty that having paid for say a mornings stalk for a roe buck or a trophy stag that you could have shot the animal in the first hour. The fair stalker should have explained to his potential client what his options are at this point and the costs involved but then again the client should have known the possibilty and asked about the options prior to the stalk. Would it be fairer if a stalker priced his time by an hourly rate so that if a beast was shot early in the day the client would only pay for say 2 hours instead of the normal 4 hour period.
Is there differences in prices between stalkers who have to make their entire livelihood from stalking clients/venison sales whereas there are others who offer paid stalking but also have a "main" occupation. Not having to cover all of lives expences from stalking can they do it cheaper.
The stalker being totally up front and the client asking the right questions to me is the answer.

 

[jamross65]

Bogtrotter

That comprehensive reply was exactly the type I was hoping this thread would generate. It differs from my approach but that is good as it is transparent and up front and gives the options to a potential guest. I should have added that I do not charge for a missed shot providing it is a clean one. If a beast is struck and lost or a bad shot ruins the carcass, I will expect payment for the estimated value of the beast as that is a fair bit of income as well. The upside is the guest can take away what is left and salvage what they can so there should at least be haunches or a saddle left clean!

Offering refunds and replacement days is about as fair as it gets BT!

Just to clarify re the accommodation. What I was getting at re the accomodation and fuel costs was that a days stalking in middle England may be a good bit more expensive than that availabale up here because of the demand or quality, but when tou add the costs of getting there the local stuff may work out cheaper.

Like you I pass on details of local establishments but have no connection to them whatsoever.

 

[howa243]

I have no answer to this but I went on an outing once that has a 'success fee' attached to it. I certainly got the feeling that the important thing for the guide was getting me in a position to shoot something. Whilst this is the intended outcome it could easily lead to circumstances where the shot is more important than the stalk. Baited areas as an example.

 

[jamross65]

I find it hard to believe that if you are in the market for paid stalking even as novice you cannot ascertain the exact cost of what you are seeking prior to going out. Surely it is a simple matter of informing the stalker of what you ideally want, adding in the what ifs and asking the price. As said because a stalker charges more for his services/shot taken than yourself it does not make you right and him wrong. Is it your findings that clients are being conned in some way. Is there mileage in listing questions that a client should ask of the stalker to ascertain costs so that an informed decision can be made. There is always the possibilty that having paid for say a mornings stalk for a roe buck or a trophy stag that you could have shot the animal in the first hour. The fair stalker should have explained to his potential client what his options are at this point and the costs involved but then again the client should have known the possibilty and asked about the options prior to the stalk. Would it be fairer if a stalker priced his time by an hourly rate so that if a beast was shot early in the day the client would only pay for say 2 hours instead of the normal 4 hour period.
Is there differences in prices between stalkers who have to make their entire livelihood from stalking clients/venison sales whereas there are others who offer paid stalking but also have a "main" occupation. Not having to cover all of lives expences from stalking can they do it cheaper.
The stalker being totally up front and the client asking the right questions to me is the answer.

Gazza

Its not the exact cost of the days stalking as such that is the issue for me or that being explained up front. It is the lack of available comparison at times to establish if it is a good deal or not or a fair one.

A reoccurring outing fee on every beast shot for example to me is not right. I cannot see any justification in it. The issue with an hourly rate for me is that the same expense in incurred whether out for 1 or 4 hours.

I was PM'd with a great example of a poor show in my opinion. First shot at a beast is a clean miss, imemdiate follow up shot is a kill. Guest is then charged by stalker for the missed shot (as laid out in terms and conditions) and the kill shot on the same beast????? yet a shot fee is applicable to every beast taken during the outing anyway???? I can understand a miss being charged for although I don't do it. Venison missing from the larder, less income for the day through no fault of the stalker etc...

A guest getting the desired beast in first hour is not an issue when on stags costing up to £300. I would imagine most guests are delighted at that point and would be happy to stop. But on cull stags with no limit for the day or hinds to me the outing is paid for and shot fees only should apply giving the guest the option of carrying on at not too high costs if they want to. If I have a guest out for proper mature stags and they get one early in the 3 or 4 days visit, I will still offer them the option of continuing stalking for the remainder outings to shoot cull stags (basically spikers) at my discretion obviously. At no extra fee. It keeps the gamedealer happy, the estate owner happy in me meeeting a cull and certainly the guests happy.

Making a 100% living for me from stalking is not the concern just now although will be in a couple of years. But that should not really have a baring on what is offered as a fair day out surely?

 

[JAYB]

May be you should produce a template contract. SD readers can then comment and if generally approved it could be published on this site.

This would never work, because regardless of what stalkers think they should pay, a single contract to cover all stalking scenarios is just not viable.

My own stalking that I offer is a prime example. My fees are £50 per day with no trophy fees and no restrictions on how many beasts are taken, and you can buy the beast at game dealer prices. The reasons for this low price? Firstly it is not my living, it is for SD members only, it is unaccompanied which means you have to be experienced. That is quite a simple structure really, but it is cheap because of what it does NOT include, firstly my time it is unaccompanied, my vehicle, which will include maintenance, running costs etc, extraction although I may be available with my quad. Then there is all my other kit, rifle, ammunition, clothing etc. Then there are other hidden expenses to consider, high seats, admin expenses, feeding deer, habitat maintenance it all starts to add up. Did I mention the cost of the leases? There is a bit more to it than just taking someones money for shooting deer.

On the face of it my £50 a day is cheap stalking, and hopefully I get some money for the leases, but what if I did it differently. What if I offered accompanied stalking, roughly 3-4 hours at each end of the day, how much is 6-8 hours of my time worth, or what would you expect for a days wages? Now you would have to extend your working day into a period of overtime to manage all the admin side of it, time to maintain all the kit, time to check the ground and deer population/health etc. So really I do not think £50 a day would cover it then, do you.

It is a minefield this business of price structuring, and it is true there are people out there that try their best to rip folk off but there are also a lot of folk who do their best to be fair, and I think Brian, Jamross65, is a prime example of this. So I think that what people should consider when looking at the prices of stalking what they would consider a fair return for their efforts for a days work, taking into account all the hidden extras, and then do the sums.

John

 

[jamross65]

Thanks John

And your offer of stalking at that cost is why I mention it to some looking for a more affordable option or simply something different to being guided...

I also do not have an issue with stalkers charging a lot of money for medal class roe bucks. It is simple supply and demand, no different to many other things in life...

 

[paddo123]

Simple really, I joined SD so I could get advice from other members who to approach as a novice on deer. Having been shooting for near on 20 years I didn't want to just go out with anybody. I wanted someone who would show me the ropes and give me a proper introduction.

Four names were given to me, after speaking to all four I made a decision. Price is always a factor but more so should be value for money. If you dont feel you get value, you dont recommend people and they go out of business. It's very cyclic and a great advantage to stalkers who provide good a service. And most importantly it is why great sites like this exist, a novice can come on and ask a question and get reasonable answers without fear of being embarrassed or made to feel 'out of place.' We all have to beginners at some stage and I am always (well almost) thankful for the constructive answers I get from this site.

 

[al4x1]

Gazza

I was PM'd with a great example of a poor show in my opinion. First shot at a beast is a clean miss, imemdiate follow up shot is a kill. Guest is then charged by stalker for the missed shot (as laid out in terms and conditions) and the kill shot on the same beast????? yet a shot fee is applicable to every beast taken during the outing anyway???? I can understand a miss being charged for although I don't do it. Venison missing from the larder, less income for the day through no fault of the stalker etc...

I hope he told him where to go that is one of the worst things I've heard yet, I can see the fee for a miss but no way if the second shot the same beast and the stalker didn't loose out.