Fair Pricing Structure?

[Labrador]

Interesting thread!
I would add that it would be useful if when offering stalking or indeed any shooting, prices (& pricing structure) were published openly on the web.
I'm sure I'm not the only potential "customer" who dislikes having to contact a "vendor" to ask the price!

 

[Ade C]

I like the idea posted by woodmaster about the additional shot fee being the value of the carcass. its up to the client/stalker to sort out who has the beast to take away.

i recognise that this would remove any additional revenue brought in by the sale of the carcass but may be this could be averaged out over the year and adjustments to the shot fee made?

 

[eggy s]

up to be a posy 6cm tall than though and you need to pay an extra £60 or what ever its not a nice feeling.

Not sure if this is directed at me as I mentioned any muntjac over 6cm I guess it is.

When a client books with me I ask them what they are after. When it comes to them pulling the trigger I will always say before they do, that Muntjac is a cull or it is not. So there is no surprises. If I am wrong and its 10cm tough tits to me, I told him it was a cull therefore it was a cull. I am not going to crack out the ruler to measure it as I am not in the market of upsetting people over £75.

 

[Ade C]

labrador. i, like you, dont like to go fishing for prices but this is the nature of the beast with which we deal. no stalker is likely to post thier price on the internet/forums only to get out done by someone posting cheaper prices. i can cope with this but the research takes time!

on the up side if i talk to someone then i can get a feel for who they are and how good the service they have to offer is. if it proves different then at least i was informed and needless to say would have no hesitation in making my feelings known either to them or to a wider audience.... its up to them ( the stalkers) to keep their game up.

 

[jamross65]

There has been a few comments on posts regarding there being no problem or complaint if the prices are explained up front. No-one would argue that and indeed I was quick to point that out at the beginning of thisnthread. The issue for me was more about what I think most would see as unjustifiable costs to perhaps beginners who were a bit inthe dark about what in fact are reasonable terms and conditions. A missed shot fee being applied when the same beast was downed seconds later with a follow up, or being charged a separate outing fee for each beast shot as well as a kill fee.

As for incorporating the value of a carcass into a days stalking, think about paying for a 200 bird day at the pheasants and walking away with a brace each. Or when fishing some rivers where for a week you are allowed to kill one salmon, everything else is catch and release. No different in stalking.

As for publishing prices, well I don't see any plumbers or joiners vans driving about with their average hourly rate displayed? If someone contacts me about an overall cost for a few days it may well differ slightly to someone just wanting a morning or evening. Or if someone wants to bring a mate and share a day/rifle, or one up a high seat and the other being guided. With so many variables I have always found it easier to reply with a pretty standard idea of costs but factor in anything that I feel is fair either in discounted rates or charging more for something (not that that has happened yet).

As for one guide being able to check out the competition if the prices were published, they can easily find that out by getting a mate to PM the trade member...

 

[Ade C]

as the issue was unjustifable costs then i can only go by my initial fellings. bear in mind i knew nothing about the industry so it was based on how i felt over the costs.

i found that if i had to trawl though lists of cost and conditions then i couldnt be arsed with them ( the providers). if the costs were simple and straight forward ( i'm no accademic!) then i was more likely to go with them. i have to add that based on this model i have not been dissapionted (so far) i would also suspect that with all the terms and conditions they were'nt after my business anyway.

 

[6pointer]

Egg,s that was not aimed at your self unless you are the only one to charge for trophies over a certain cm and sadly you are not.
Un acceptable fee,s might also include people charging for trophies that are not in fact what they seem to be. Medals shot being traded up eg you shoot a bronze and get charged for a silver and so on . It is then up to you to claim your money back never happens its a con and one that will work time and time again it will always leave the Pro with the plus. Just like the corner shop that only ever short changes you never gives you more lol.

 

[eggy s]

Well 6 Pointer, my terms and conditions state we use the BASC measuring service. Once the animal is shot its head goes off to be professionally measured. Then you get charged on the results of that.

Dont tar everyone with the same bush. I will always give my clients the benefit of the doubt. There is no guide on this planet that can look at a Roe and state that will be x points. If I think it will go medal then the client is again informed before the shot. As the client you are the one behind the trigger, if you are unclear of the terms and conditions then don't pull the trigger.

If you rip people off then don't expect to have a good reputation.

 

[ajfab]

i have bought stalking of a few SD members and found the deals and packages spot on and straight down the line.
secret is ask the question you want the answer to after all its a buyers market out there and sellers need to lay it on the line to get the clients,
the shooting world is very small and word gets about of dodgy operations but also word gets around about how good certain operators are ,and usually the good ones are booked well in advance.
good thing about stalking now from say 15 years ago is the Internet has opened the world of stalking for every one to see and learn about different places and whats on offer where before it was a case of a few magazines with a few adverts or word of mouth.
so thumbs up to the lads of stalking directory for offering some decant packages.
and remember folks ask the questions at the start before you book and enjoy your trips.

 

[woodmaster]

Interesting read. I expected pro's not to be all that positive about my idea of charging a shot fee, both to encourage the PH to get client on deer and secondly to encourage clients to take shots well within their capability. Then assuming good shooting and no more than expected meat damage either client keeps carcass or is credited shot fee. I understand this would reduce the income of the PH but as this thread was asking what clients think is fair I gave my opinion. What I would say is I recognize PH's are trying to earn a living and have a product to sell. Hopefully there are enough clients to outstrip supply and allow for prices to remain good. This said from a clients point of view I feel that since either the PH should either be getting paid to perform a cull for agricultural/forestry purposes which if allied to taking clients should make for a profitable enterprise. Where PH has to pay for lease costs are higher and I suspect makes the chance of profit questionable, although I still am of the impression the cost of the lease should be linked to the number of deer to be taken as identified in the cull plan. For example if a pro paid £2000 for the annual lease on ground that had a cull target of 50 head (£40 head) then I would expect the value of the venison to more than cover the cost of the lease. This would then leave the PH to earn their wage from taking the client. As any business needs to make profit along with a wage there should be either a high return on the venison which would be fine if taking Fallow, red's or Sika ( I would expect £70-100 per head) but on a pound for pound price there would be little profit on roe or muntjack so a higher outing fee may be applicable or a sensible shot fee to make up the profit. However on land where a planned cull is being carried out and being charged for I don't see why (other than pure profitability) a shot fee would be imposed, as the PH is receiving payment in any event. I personally find it off putting when being charged for an animal which no one has had to rear or buy as they are wild. No one has vet bills or pens to buy/build, no keeper has to go round them up each day or feed them. Yet if they are of a certain size or even male they attract a higher fee, yet have cost no more that the others. I have been charged £'s more for a cull buck than a cull doe. Weird as by their very name they are both animals identified as needing to be culled. So why the difference? If a roe buck has some points but is no longer the best buck around and is past his best he has already passed on his genes and should be culled allowing a younger buck to come through, so should be part of a cull yet often is charged out as a trophy. I'm sure there are many reasons for charges but to be honest I do wonder if there are people who have embarked on the route of trying to make a good living out of stalking which just isn't there and so find themselves having to charge for all and sundry. To conclude my opinion of fairness would be:
To pay a guide (PH) a wages which recognises his skill.
To hopefully shoot a animal for cull purpose or a trophy at an agreed price with no guesstimates as to size, just a cost before pulling trigger.
The ability to purchase the meat at fair dealer prices
No hidden or add on costs
Good cup of tea and breakfast.

 

[bogtrotter]

Interesting read. I expected pro's not to be all that positive about my idea of charging a shot fee, both to encourage the PH to get client on deer and secondly to encourage clients to take shots well within their capability. Then assuming good shooting and no more than expected meat damage either client keeps carcass or is credited shot fee. I understand this would reduce the income of the PH but as this thread was asking what clients think is fair I gave my opinion. What I would say is I recognize PH's are trying to earn a living and have a product to sell. Hopefully there are enough clients to outstrip supply and allow for prices to remain good. This said from a clients point of view I feel that since either the PH should either be getting paid to perform a cull for agricultural/forestry purposes which if allied to taking clients should make for a profitable enterprise. Where PH has to pay for lease costs are higher and I suspect makes the chance of profit questionable, although I still am of the impression the cost of the lease should be linked to the number of deer to be taken as identified in the cull plan. For example if a pro paid £2000 for the annual lease on ground that had a cull target of 50 head (£40 head) then I would expect the value of the venison to more than cover the cost of the lease. This would then leave the PH to earn their wage from taking the client. As any business needs to make profit along with a wage there should be either a high return on the venison which would be fine if taking Fallow, red's or Sika ( I would expect £70-100 per head) but on a pound for pound price there would be little profit on roe or muntjack so a higher outing fee may be applicable or a sensible shot fee to make up the profit. However on land where a planned cull is being carried out and being charged for I don't see why (other than pure profitability) a shot fee would be imposed, as the PH is receiving payment in any event. I personally find it off putting when being charged for an animal which no one has had to rear or buy as they are wild. No one has vet bills or pens to buy/build, no keeper has to go round them up each day or feed them. Yet if they are of a certain size or even male they attract a higher fee, yet have cost no more that the others. I have been charged £'s more for a cull buck than a cull doe. Weird as by their very name they are both animals identified as needing to be culled. So why the difference? If a roe buck has some points but is no longer the best buck around and is past his best he has already passed on his genes and should be culled allowing a younger buck to come through, so should be part of a cull yet often is charged out as a trophy. I'm sure there are many reasons for charges but to be honest I do wonder if there are people who have embarked on the route of trying to make a good living out of stalking which just isn't there and so find themselves having to charge for all and sundry. To conclude my opinion of fairness would be:
To pay a guide (PH) a wages which recognises his skill.
To hopefully shoot a animal for cull purpose or a trophy at an agreed price with no guesstimates as to size, just a cost before pulling trigger.
The ability to purchase the meat at fair dealer prices
No hidden or add on costs
Good cup of tea and breakfast.

There are quite a few problems with your idea, if I was to follow your idea of letting a client keep the carcase or crediting him with the shot fee, what you must bare in mind is that we calculate in venison returns when setting our fees, I would need to raise outing fees on Roe by £30 -£40 an outing just to cover it
it would raise the price of a Stag by maybe £200, what about a day on Does or Hinds how would that work if you have say shot four hinds for the day, now more than likely you would not want four hinds, probably could not
transport four hinds but more to the point you have payed £150 for your day you now have venison valued at £360- £400 so I am paying you to come and shoot my deer, if thats the case there is little point of me being in business or have I misunderstood your post.

Now your next point about the PH being paid to do a cull on agriculture or forestry well it does not really work like that estates may employ a stalker or PH if you prefer as does FC , in which case these guys get payed a wage they don't receive any of the money from a client that comes stalking other than the tip, the stalking fee and venison fee goes to the landowner be that estate forestry company whatever, it will go to off set the cost of them employing a PH.

Your figures are a little off on leases also the cost of a Roe lease on forestry is usually priced around £100 per Roe though it may be possible to get a private lease for a little less.

 

[woodmaster]

Thanks BT. As expected there are always many costs and hence reasons for the prices charged. As a recreational stalker I have little knowledge of the costs involved for you guys so apologize if you feel I am unduly criticizing your profession. You have misunderstood the post with regard to the shot fee. My idea is purely that you don't actually pay the money, rather all that is done is in order to provide some reassurance to the client that he will be put onto deer the PH has a lower outing charge which is then bumped up by the shot fee, however with a successful kill the client will pay the outing fee plus the shot fee, but would be the proud beneficiary of the meat. If he didn't want this meat he could leave it with the PH as payment for the shot fee. So there is a direct benefit to the client making good shots. This obviously doesn't work if you have included the venison value into the days income but still from my POV is a good option even if at the end of the day I would have to buy the venison if I wanted it. EG Outing fee + shot fee + venison if required.
I don't advocate that you pay the client to shoot as this obviously would not be a business.
I guess my lack of knowledge shows as I hadn't counted on the value of the venison being taken by the estate/land owner etc, this does leave the PH with little profit from his exploits as I assume the "wage" is probably less than it should be.
Which from my point of view leaves me quite happy with what I have paid recently for my days out, my only queries is still why are cull bucks sometimes charged higher than doe's?
This really all boils down to people being open with each other in what is being expected by the client and what is available from the PH.

 

[eggy s]

Outing fee + shot fee + venison if required.

Is this not how 95% of the stalking world works?

I charge

Outing fees of x + Shot fees depending what you shoot (or no shot fees if its a cull animal) + venison if you want it.

 

[6pointer]

Egg,s you seem to take this personally mate and this is an open post. I am sure your clients are very happy but from reading posts like this the PRO,s might be able to clear some areas out for a novices that were not apparent. Let me assure you the Pro,s there are plenty of new customers out there that will not go out with pro,s because they do not know what the cost will actually end up at.
There are many pro,s that guess up a trophy knowing that they will benefit from the cull. Like i said charging per cm on the hoof is a rip off. To Suggest to a client who might be out on his first stalk who has travelled 100,s of miles to stalk with you that if he is unsure then don't pull the trigger is just why this post was put up. You also forgot to mention the £50 boil out fee lol.

 

[IanF]

Always a bit hesitant to get into this sort of thread, however....

Some would regard me as a 'Professional' stalker - to me this means not only do I have a fair idea about my subject, but also, I do this for a living.

I do not have alternative income from a day-job & accordingly as a self-employed person HAVE to include all over-heads when setting my rates.

My rates have to fund: Mortgage, and all the ancillary costs of living, tax, National Insurance, professional insurance, vehicles, maintenance and fuel expenditure, lease costs, feed costs, feeders, high-seats (construction and maintenance), offal disposal, firearms & ammunition expenditure etc. My average day with two outings will span 14-16 hours & bear in mind that UK minimum wage is a tad over £6 per hour - before overheads get deducted!

My rates either cover this (& hopefully make a small profit) or I am a charity & will not be in business next year -not a situation my bank manager or family would appreciate.

The commitments I have detailed above ensure that I will never be able to compete on price when my opposition (from a business stand-point) make their living from employment & sell a bit of stalking for 'pin money'.

I believe that rates should be transparent and appropriate & am keen that the shooter gets value for money. Those are the only reasons he will return and stalk with me again.

Strangely, I find I can give away as much stalking as I want!

Rgds

Ian

 

[bogtrotter]

Always a bit hesitant to get into this sort of thread, however....

Some would regard me as a 'Professional' stalker - to me this means not only do I have a fair idea about my subject, but also, I do this for a living.

I do not have alternative income from a day-job & accordingly as a self-employed person HAVE to include all over-heads when setting my rates.

My rates have to fund: Mortgage, and all the ancillary costs of living, tax, National Insurance, professional insurance, vehicles, maintenance and fuel expenditure, lease costs, feed costs, feeders, high-seats (construction and maintenance), offal disposal, firearms & ammunition expenditure etc. My average day with two outings will span 14-16 hours & bear in mind that UK minimum wage is a tad over £6 per hour - before overheads get deducted!

My rates either cover this (& hopefully make a small profit) or I am a charity & will not be in business next year -not a situation my bank manager or family would appreciate.

The commitments I have detailed above ensure that I will never be able to compete on price when my opposition (from a business stand-point) make their living from employment & sell a bit of stalking for 'pin money'.

I believe that rates should be transparent and appropriate & am keen that the shooter gets value for money. Those are the only reasons he will return and stalk with me again.

Strangely, I find I can give away as much stalking as I want!

Rgds

Ian

Thanks Ian that covers it .

Woodmaster this is what I was trying to say in PM but Ian puts it so much better.

 

[JC275]

I can't really see why everyone feels the need to disect the cost of a stalking outing down to the last penny, if you are happy to pay then pay, if you're not then don't. If you find nice places to visit then go back and tell your friends, if you don't like it, don't go back but do tell the Stalker why you weren't happy. If you are on a tight budget then make sure the Stalker is aware of this before you confirm the booking so that he can recomend the best deal, if you don't like what he has on offer go elsewhere.

If you feel that Stalkers (who, these days, seem to be called Pros, PH's, Guides etc) earn too much money and are all driving around in Bentleys then go out and become one.

Its ever so easy, all you have to do is go to college for a year or two (obviously you won't be earning whilst your doing this and it will probably end up costing you several thousand pounds but don't worry, it will be worth it when you hit the big time) , maybe get apprenticeship on a good Estate for five years or so as you see these opportunities come up all the time and hardly anyone is interested in them, when you get a full time Stalkers job all you then need to do is convince the Agent that you should recieve this massive income from stalking rather than just your wage, along the way you will probably need to provide your own firearms and dogs and quite a bit of your own equipment, you will need to find a wife or girlfriend who is happy with never seeing you in the morning or evening for about eight months of the year especially at weekends when most of the guests want to stalk. Obviously your salary won't allow you to buy a house so when it comes to retirement you will probably end up in a council flat in town but hey, maybe you will discover a long lost millionaire relative.

Alternatively, you could take the other easy route to fame, wealth and glory and become a self-employed Stalker, basically you will need to do all of the above plus provide all your own kit (including house), find 10,000+ acres of great stalking ground and do all of your own admin and marketing. Simple.

I'm just going to put another bundle of fifty pound notes on the fire and have a caviar sandwich.

JC

 

[devon deer stalker]

That is a great reply Ian, but perhaps you forgot something, like me you pay to be a trade member on here to advertise our services, something some people on here are reluctant to do but still mention they take out clients.
Cheers
Richard

 

[jamross65]

Good points being made but I would also add that where stalking is not a sole income for some, neither is obtaining ground free. Where leases become available on a commercial basis then to many, including myself, it would not be affordable otherwise. That said, in some respects it is no different in renting a shop premises in my opinion. You rent the property as a retailer, and then it is up to you to sell a product to cover your costs, make a living and as Ian says perhaps end up with a small profit. I know plenty of full time stalkers and keepers who supplement their income by loading and working dogs on other estates. For me I am very fortunate that I have a couple of years to see if stalking as full time employment is a viable proposition for me. Where expenses of leases, vehicles, dogs and all the other essentials are factored in, I doubt if I could be more competitive than som already at it full time!

Again I want to stress the issue is not the varying costs in offering stalking or their transparency, it was more about 'fair' costs and conditions.

 

[al4x1]

There has been a few comments on posts regarding there being no problem or complaint if the prices are explained up front. No-one would argue that and indeed I was quick to point that out at the beginning of thisnthread. The issue for me was more about what I think most would see as unjustifiable costs to perhaps beginners who were a bit inthe dark about what in fact are reasonable terms and conditions. A missed shot fee being applied when the same beast was downed seconds later with a follow up, or being charged a separate outing fee for each beast shot as well as a kill fee.

this bit keeps being lost in this discussion, yes the costs may be transparent and you may see that a fee will be charged for a miss but to get that fee and then a fee for the same beast with the second shot a few seconds on is taking terms and conditions to a somewhat crooked level. That is totally wrong in anyones book and be interesting how many of the pros who charge a fee for a miss would levy the charge if the second bullet connected.

I may have been lucky stalking as I've done a fair bit of paid stalking and never come away unhappy, I've had stalkers offering a free stalk after a fruitless day others including larger bucks as cull bucks after a quiet morning and can safely say I felt guilty about the first as that is stalking and the second just made me feel I would stalk with them again. I've shot on both payment schedules so flat rate for culls and also a fee for the stalk and a fee for the cull and there isn't much to choose between them. The cull option obviously you know your exact costs the second you are the one who chooses what you pay. Whichever you are buying at the end of the day and it is in the guides interest to keep you happy and for repeat business. When you feel stung you then tend to not go again, not recommend them and in these days of the internet negative comments can be spread very wide very easily.