Pre DSC

[6pointer]

The DSC Courses are normally run over two three or even Four days. The cost of these days is normally very high and the ones i have been on have a good pass rate, Knowing that it is not a fail-able test but an assessment and you only need to go back at a cost of £20 to resit any section if necessary.
Do you think there is a place for a pre lev one day added on or do you think they are a waist of cash.

 

[keeperstweed]

The DSC Courses are normally run over two three or even Four days. The cost of these days is normally very high and the ones i have been on have a good pass rate, Knowing that it is not a fail-able test but an assessment and you only need to go back at a cost of £20 to resit any section if necessary.
Do you think there is a place for a pre lev one day added on or do you think they are a waist of cash.

why bother with pre lev one day. you get out what you put in, study study study and revise revise revise. that alone will get you through.

 

[widows son]

why bother with pre lev one day. you get out what you put in, study study study and revise revise revise. that alone will get you through.

To be honest it is only a money making scam, as you quite rightly say study and revision should make you aware of whats ahead , if your a seasoned stalker and have the knowledge, the assessment maybe the answer thats if you have the knowledge the sit and read the book , which Ive seen many do until the reach there level two only to find out ,they have missed out on half the protocol for the level 2 questions and answers .

There in lays the problem , at the rear with all the gear but no clue ,stalking is far form only about the level one and two it is about gaining years of experience in various conditions and seasons ,and a host of other things which you cannot get out of courses or books .

 

[Paul at Fechan]

I've had a fair few novices and some have never shot anything bigger than rabbits and also a lot that don't have an FAC! So long as they are provided with good pre-course materials and some form of deer identification information and do a bit of studying before hand then they can walk into the course as prepared as any stalker. Good solid tuition on the range and you find those with no experience often outshoot the experts lol.

Deerstalkers with experience who haven't done level 1 can't answer a big percentage of the dsc1 questions without actually doing revision and that will catch people out that 'think they know' when they come to the course who haven't studied, that's because of technical questions that require specific information that you can only get from reading the literature. Because here in Scotland!... surely everyone knows that a muntjac fawn will loose it's spots at about two months, fallow deer in adult dentition have 32 teeth and obviously Chinese water deer rut in December!

But, to be fair it will give novices and more experienced shooting folk confidence if they do the course before their L1.

 

[stalkinginengland]

There are those out there who are not ready for a level one who want to find out more and experience the pressure of the shooting test and the simulated stalk. If 6p and WS are right, and they may be, why have I had a group of 3 who want a pre level one and when offered a level 1 DSC they declined as they felt it was too much for their experience contact me in the past 2 weeks? Where WS and I do agree is on the subject of experience that is why our pre level 1 course is one day on deer id, habitat and equipment and day 2 is practical with range work and simulated stalking. Going on the feed back we have the balance about right.

Mark

 

[davidm]

Per DSC courses are good because it takes away the assessment part of DSC1 which can be a big worry. So it's all about learning. I think for someone just starting out it would be great because before being tested on a subejct they would be able to learn the basics in a relaxed friendly environment. Not everyone has access to a mentor to show how everything is done.

 

[Eric the Red]

I see there is an increasing demand for pre-DSCL1 courses. As stated by the OP and others, the shortened course is about cramming for the learning and working out how to pass the assessments.
It seems inevitable that as more and more people take it, there will be fewer experienced stalkers and far more novices talking it - especially when it seems to be used as a gatepost to gaining an FAC (but let's not get into that issue here!)

The reality is that more people are on courses with less experience - of deer and more importantly firearms - and therefore the focus of the course may not cater for people with very little experience. A pre-day, with no assessment, but which gives an opportunity to gain some experience (especially in the handling of firearms etc), however limited must be a good thing.

In the same way a pre-DSCL2 course, helping candidates to understand what is required of them by an AW is also a sensible idea - and may help save both the stalkers and the AW's time in the long run.

 

[Monkey Spanker]

How can you need a pre- DSC 1 course???
It's mainly theory! All of the providers I know issue manuals/training material prior to the course. Other than learning what is issued, there should be no other requirement! Learn as much as you can before attending so that most of it is revision and you will enjoy the course much more as you will have more capacity and therefore be under less pressure!
MS

 

[Paul at Fechan]

It's a confidence thing though, in honesty though I always get guys direct onto their dsc1 because if the fail any part of it they only need to resit that part or parts which gives them a clear target to aim for. Very few guys actually need resits but it's easy to panic and sometimes a guy melts under pressure and goes blank.

Pre-dsc1 can also be just informative training and doesn't mean someone has to do level 1. It's easy to say 'you don't need it' but if people felt it was worthwhile or valuable and helped them then there is a place for it.

 

[stalkinginengland]

Our prelevel 1 has become more of an introduction to stalking course and to see total new comers get totally captivated by sport of stalking is great. Numbers can only be a good thing for the sport as there is strength in numbers

 

[Peterm]

As I have said on a post yesterday

If complete novices or those with little experience think they can pass the DSC 1 by just turning up then they might be mistaken. You do need to get some practical experience before doing the range assessments, and this is not possible on the DSC 1 course. Four to five years ago we saw a shift from experienced stalkers doing the assessments to more novice stalkers, and the pass rates were falling. The Pre-DSC 1 provides that extra practical experience and are popular to those who recognise that they do not have the practice under their belt.

For every 2 DSC 1 courses run, we also try to run one Pre-DSC 1 for those who require it.​

 

[6pointer]

Peter they might be mistkrn but then again they might be waisting a lot of money.The normal process and you can corect me if i am wrong is to book on a coarse that teaches you all you need to know!!!!. At the end of the coarse you sit an assment. But lately BASC and BDS Have started this Pre before pre training coarse which i feel is not nessasary.
Peter the BDS and BASC have a major member down turn in Scotland do you think it might be that they are now only interested in making cash and not what there purpose was and that was to look after there members.
I am not against training far from it. I believe its the way forward and should be in place before starting down the road of real experience.
2014 is getting nearer and we the deer stalkers are no closer to knowing what the new legislation will throw at us. Maybe BASC BDS SGA who all sit on the steering group for competence and who all make a bucket full of cash from it should in fact get the facts out in the open so people can make an educated decision on the deer stalkers theory test.

PeterM (QUOTE)You do need to get some practical experience before doing the range assessments, and this is not possible on the DSC 1 course. ??

I cannot talk about training from BASC never been on there coarse but if you do not cover all the syllabus then it is pour preparation. The DCS 1 Coarse the groups ran all had shooting practice before the assessment.

 

[Peterm]

Making money is certainly not the reason that BASC encourages training. The resoan we encourage training is to improve standards and bring new blood into the sport. If we were in it to make money do you not think that the price might be a little more expensive, or that we would rack um and stack um on the courses. We are actaully providing cost effective training that does not put barriers in peoples way, but also mindfull that we are funded by members money. The price is very reasonable for a four day course and we limit numbers to 12 to ensure a good trainer to candidate ratio; this ensures that all candidates get a good experience and they certainly do.

On the assessment day you should turn up with a zeroed rifle and all the equipment you need for the day. Unless you have pre-arranged to borrow equipment. There is no Practice sessions - you are expected to be able to meet the criteria on the day.

If the courses were not needed then no one would book on them.

 

[widows son]

Making money is certainly not the reason that BASC encourages training. The resoan we encourage training is to improve standards and bring new blood into the sport. If we were in it to make money do you not think that the price might be a little more expensive, or that we would rack um and stack um on the courses. We are actaully providing cost effective training that does not put barriers in peoples way, but also mindfull that we are funded by members money. The price is very reasonable for a four day course and we limit numbers to 12 to ensure a good trainer to candidate ratio; this ensures that all candidates get a good experience and they certainly do.

On the assessment day you should turn up with a zeroed rifle and all the equipment you need for the day. Unless you have pre-arranged to borrow equipment. There is no Practice sessions - you are expected to be able to meet the criteria on the day.

If the courses were not needed then no one would book on them.

Oh really so if that isn't one of the many reasons, why don't you bring the prices down to suit the current climate then .

You mention your 4 day course which wont be on many peoples door step, fact being most of the areas where the courses are ,are not close to anyones door step ,there in lays the cost of accommodation and food for the duration the cost of fuel etc etc etc, showing your prices for the courses can treble due to the above mentioned costs .

Firearms awareness £125.00
Pre level one course £125.00
Level one course £290.00
Intermediate deer stalking £260.00

Then the level two fill yer boots cost which in a number of cases is think of a number and double it .

 

[Peterm]

To clarify BASC's membership levels in Scotland are increasing - Fact.

If we bring the prices down any further we will not be able to cover our costs.

An example of an average DSC 1 course

Average of 10 candidates paying £290 for a four day course = £2900 Net

Outgoings
DMQ certification costs per candidate is £35 = £350
Assessment centre administration fees per candidate £55 per candidate = £550
Lead trainer £150 per day. 4 days = £600
Range assistant = £90
Classroom £100 per day = £400
Ammunition, average of 60 rounds = £60
Tea and Coffee £2.95 per candidate per day, lets give the trainer coffee = £118
Range hire (if we are lucky) = £100
Manuals are £19 per candidate = £190

The sub total is allready £2,468. We also have to figure the hardware required, PPE, rifles, scopes, bipods and all the other equipment required such as overhead projectors, some one has to organise the course, printing costs, postage etc. etc.. Yes BASC is lucky in that we have sponsors who provide us with equipment, we sometimes get good rates on ranges and classrooms and sometimes the courses are full with 12 candidates

Yes you can make good money if all the facillities are free - but everyone is entitled to make a living, are they not? One of the key reasons BASC delivers DSC 1 courses is because there were these gaps in the country, but we cant deliver the course in everyones front room its just not possible. Nothing in this life is free and I'm afraid for a few £290 might be too expensive. I hope I dont offend anyone; but if they are unable to afford £290 for a one off cost, how are they going to buy a rifle, ammunition, sticks, clothing, petrol, car, trailer, winch, larder...........

The Intermediate Deer course is fantastic value - where else could you go and shoot six deer and be guided by an experienced stalker through carcass preparation? Yes they are cull animals/no trophies.

I hope this is taken in a positive light and explains why the costs are as they are. In reality the costs should be alot higher, but that would really put barriers in the way.

 

[Nulli Secundus]

As an ex army weapons instructor and having shot recreationally for over 30 years I feel a lot more emphasis should be on the safe handling, simulated stalks and the actual shooting than there is currently.

The DSC 1 is brilliant for theory but woefully inadequate for the novice who may not have an FAC with regard to shooting. Knowing when a deer loses its summer coat does not make a person either a good or safe shot, capable of handling a firearm correctly.

I would really like to see the course split into a level 1 (theory only) a level 2 Firearms handling and shooting theory followed by a full test day for the candidate at the end of it (the course could consist of a week on the range with good firearms instruction shooting and simulated stalks) and a level 3 which would be administered and run by either the BASC and or BDS as per level 2 but standardised to ensure consistency or do away with it all together and make the level 2 similar to I have described here. Theoretically a novice can go and do the DSC 1 book a stalk or join a syndicate and then apply for a FAC and off he or she goes. At no point in that process has anyone ever instructed that person on how to shoot or handle firearms correctly. Just my two penneth!

I believe that a level 1 deer theory (as is) followed by a level 2 safe handling and shooting course would benefit and qualify someone to shoot deer when applying for leases or a FAC much more than the current situation. It would give FLO's and landowners confidence in the person applying.

 

[Paul at Fechan]

Outgoings

DMQ certification costs per candidate is £35 = £350
Assessment centre administration fees per candidate £55 per candidate = £550.

Hold on, you're the assessment centre and DMQ (the qualification provider), and don't say it's not because you phone DMQ and the answer is 'Welcome to B.A.S.C'

that's £900 that's NOT a raw cost or 'outgoings'... don't think your figures are right mate

 

[User00003]

LOL, I did call the DMQ once, and the answer was, BASC how can I help you...I thought, WTF,,,but I spoke to Mandy at the DMQ desk, who was a lovely and nice to talk to, so I didnt' mind - LOL!

on another note, maybe there's money to be made in a pre-pre-dsc 1 course

 

[Nulli Secundus]

To clarify BASC's membership levels in Scotland are increasing - Fact.

If we bring the prices down any further we will not be able to cover our costs.

An example of an average DSC 1 course

Average of 10 candidates paying £290 for a four day course = £2900 Net

Outgoings
DMQ certification costs per candidate is £35 = £350
Assessment centre administration fees per candidate £55 per candidate = £550
Lead trainer £150 per day. 4 days = £600
Range assistant = £90
Classroom £100 per day = £400
Ammunition, average of 60 rounds = £60
Tea and Coffee £2.95 per candidate per day, lets give the trainer coffee = £118
Range hire (if we are lucky) = £100
Manuals are £19 per candidate = £190

The sub total is allready £2,468. We also have to figure the hardware required, PPE, rifles, scopes, bipods and all the other equipment required such as overhead projectors, some one has to organise the course, printing costs, postage etc. etc.. Yes BASC is lucky in that we have sponsors who provide us with equipment, we sometimes get good rates on ranges and classrooms and sometimes the courses are full with 12 candidates

Yes you can make good money if all the facillities are free - but everyone is entitled to make a living, are they not? One of the key reasons BASC delivers DSC 1 courses is because there were these gaps in the country, but we cant deliver the course in everyones front room its just not possible. Nothing in this life is free and I'm afraid for a few £290 might be too expensive. I hope I dont offend anyone; but if they are unable to afford £290 for a one off cost, how are they going to buy a rifle, ammunition, sticks, clothing, petrol, car, trailer, winch, larder...........

The Intermediate Deer course is fantastic value - where else could you go and shoot six deer and be guided by an experieced stalker through carcass preparation? Yes they are cull animals/no trophies.

I hope this is taken in a positive light and explains why the costs are as they are. In reality the costs should be alot higher, but that would really put barriers in the way.

I really don't know how you manage it? I am glad and thankful that the BASC and other bodies run the course just to help train up novice stalkers and improve knowledge, as it is quite obviously not for the money!

 

[Peterm]

Hold on, you're the assessment centre and DMQ (the qualification provider), and don't say it's not because you phone DMQ and the answer is 'Welcome to B.A.S.C'

that's £900 that's NOT a raw cost or 'outgoings'... don't think your figures are right mate

I shall list some facts

The assessment centre has to cover all its costs to be viable therefore we have to charge.

Mandy (DMQ) also works part time for BASC

Mandy is based at BASC head quarters

The BDS are based at GWCT's head quarters but are a separate organisation to the GWCT

DMQ and BASC are separate businesses, even though its seems a little strange - Even I cant get into the databases

DMQ is run by a board of stakeholders all of whom have an equal say in how the business in run

DMQ is not run for profit. It is run by the industry stakeholders for the sector

At a policy level BASC is against mandatory testing, but pro Self-regulation

There are no hidden costs in a BASC course; it is all inclusive

Nearly 20,000 stalkers will have completed there DSC1 by early 2014