Pre DSC

[Paul at Fechan]

Peter, good facts but obviously now the guys will want to know who are this 'board of stakeholders' are and how many of them work directly for BASC and BDS. Also, if DMQ is not run for profit then where does the wedge generated go at £35 per certification?. After all, with the DMQ's staff working at BASC hq and only doing 'part-time' work on DMQ admin while working for BASC at the change of a hat, then what does happen to the money? good causes, countryside projects? I'd like to know, has DMQ ever though about investing into the provision of other essential qualifications for stalkers like quad bike, manual handling and first aid that these days are becoming ever more essential?

It may just be a case that the electricity bill is very high from switching between the DMQ system to BASC system and back, that and the office rent, paper clips and the complicated split of wages from admin staff to cleaners working for different businesses working from the same desks. Obviously it couldn't be about splitting an organisation into two businesses so that DMQ/BASC wouldn't be seen to be the the largest trainer of a qualification they are the provider of ... that's unimaginable

 

[Moray Outfitting]

Andy here. Was determined to stay clear of this mud match and let's be honest it was only ever going to be such and reflect poorly on both those choosing to take part and SD as a whole. So suppose that includes us now

Having exchanged PMs with 6 Pointer a while back, I have a much better handle on his issues and in many respects don't disagree with a number of them. There is a debating point in there of genuine interest to many - but it isn't ever going to happen on SD whilst there's so much shouting, bluster and point scoring going on. In addition, the basis of understanding is skewed for many - I do not mean that in a derogatory way; but whilst that remains, logical discussion wont progress and we keep getting sucked into the same old circle - which I would suggest is why this area of argument never resolves, just festers on to the detriment of all.

I honestly do not know how to move the proper debate on and genuinely regret that - because we all lose.

Luckily having a back -ground in Company Law, I have hit upon a money making sc.... er I mean relevant, super value and delivered by the absolute paragon of trainers in this specialised field ( I have a framed note ( it is from me mum, but she knows her stuff ) on the wall ) covering the UK law on Corporate Entities and in particular what Solomon V Solomon proved, the effect of incorporation and the role of shareholders - set against the context of corporate walls, shareholder interest, executive and non-executive control/duties, limitation by guarantee and what not for profit company objectives actually mean at law rather than down the pub/ what a sane person would likely believe it means.

I feel sure that this qualification will become mandatory for anyone wishing to join in posts such as this - so volunteer before you are forced. By 2025 a Minister will review matters and may do something or not, so it's crystal clear where we all stand.

The 89 day course will cover everything and you will graduate with perfect and permanent knowledge- even if you fall into a coma by day 3. Full money back guarantee - unless coma results in PVS - in which case no liability is accepted .... for anything. £45,000 - which is as low as I can go and is made up as follows -

My back pocket £45,000
Other £0

Bring your own tea and biscuits

Obviously this course is off my own bat as Stalking School insurance wont cover it and not least I don't want to share all that dosh.

Not my finest work and its never a good idea to write in anger, frustration, sadness or euphoria but sometimes something has to give and, regretably, humour with sarcasm is the most positive spin I can put on this just now. Sincere apologies for adding nothing to moving reasoned debate forward.

 

[User00014]

Our prelevel 1 has become more of an introduction to stalking course and to see total new comers get totally captivated by sport of stalking is great. Numbers can only be a good thing for the sport as there is strength in numbers

With the greatest respect mark , you know a hell of lot about deer considering you have only had your DMQ L2 6 months , thinking about it I was the one who told you how to go about it !

 

[Peterm]

Peter, good facts but obviously now the guys will want to know who are this 'board of stakeholders' are and how many of them work directly for BASC and BDS. Also, if DMQ is not run for profit then where does the wedge generated go at £35 per certification?. After all, with the DMQ's staff working at BASC hq and only doing 'part-time' work on DMQ admin while working for BASC at the change of a hat, then what does happen to the money? good causes, countryside projects? I'd like to know, has DMQ ever though about investing into the provision of other essential qualifications for stalkers like quad bike, manual handling and first aid that these days are becoming ever more essential?

It may just be a case that the electricity bill is very high from switching between the DMQ system to BASC system and back, that and the office rent, paper clips and the complicated split of wages from admin staff to cleaners working for different businesses working from the same desks. Obviously it couldn't be about splitting an organisation into two businesses so that DMQ/BASC wouldn't be seen to be the the largest trainer of a qualification they are the provider of ... that's unimaginable[/QU

Only one from BASC, one from BDS, one from NGO, none from SACS and one from some of the other signatory bodies listed on the DMQ website.
The costs include
[TABLE="width: 138"]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl76, width: 184, bgcolor: transparent"]Direct expenses
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl74, bgcolor: transparent"]Candidate badges & postage
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl74, bgcolor: transparent"]Assessment materials and CDs
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl74, bgcolor: transparent"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl76, bgcolor: transparent"]Gross profit
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl74, bgcolor: transparent"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl76, bgcolor: transparent"]Overhead expenses
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl74, bgcolor: transparent"]Administration centre charges
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl75, bgcolor: transparent"]Level 1, level 2 & badges
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl74, bgcolor: transparent"]Consultancy services incl office costs
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl74, bgcolor: transparent"]Printing, postage and stationery
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl74, bgcolor: transparent"]Travel and meeting expenses
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl74, bgcolor: transparent"]QAG incl fees for Chairman
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl74, bgcolor: transparent"]Accountants' remuneration
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl74, bgcolor: transparent"]Company secretarial expenses
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl74, bgcolor: transparent"]Wesite & database
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl74, bgcolor: transparent"]Amortisation of computer software
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl72, bgcolor: transparent"]Conference & sundry expenses
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl74, bgcolor: transparent"]Bank charges
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl77, bgcolor: transparent"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl78, bgcolor: transparent"]Trading (loss) / profit
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl80, bgcolor: transparent"]Development projects
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl76, bgcolor: transparent"]Operating result before interest
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl77, bgcolor: transparent"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl77, bgcolor: transparent"]Interest
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: xl77, bgcolor: transparent"]Corporation tax
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


The board decides who has the admin contract and BASC currently has it.

 

[Peterm]

Andy here. Was determined to stay clear of this mud match and let's be honest it was only ever going to be such and reflect poorly on both those choosing to take part and SD as a whole. So suppose that includes us now

Having exchanged PMs with 6 Pointer a while back, I have a much better handle on his issues and in many respects don't disagree with a number of them. There is a debating point in there of genuine interest to many - but it isn't ever going to happen on SD whilst there's so much shouting, bluster and point scoring going on. In addition, the basis of understanding is skewed for many - I do not mean that in a derogatory way; but whilst that remains, logical discussion wont progress and we keep getting sucked into the same old circle - which I would suggest is why this area of argument never resolves, just festers on to the detriment of all.

I honestly do not know how to move the proper debate on and genuinely regret that - because we all lose.

Luckily having a back -ground in Company Law, I have hit upon a money making sc.... er I mean relevant, super value and delivered by the absolute paragon of trainers in this specialised field ( I have a framed note ( it is from me mum, but she knows her stuff ) on the wall ) covering the UK law on Corporate Entities and in particular what Solomon V Solomon proved, the effect of incorporation and the role of shareholders - set against the context of corporate walls, shareholder interest, executive and non-executive control/duties, limitation by guarantee and what not for profit company objectives actually mean at law rather than down the pub/ what a sane person would likely believe it means.

I feel sure that this qualification will become mandatory for anyone wishing to join in posts such as this - so volunteer before you are forced. By 2025 a Minister will review matters and may do something or not, so it's crystal clear where we all stand.

The 89 day course will cover everything and you will graduate with perfect and permanent knowledge- even if you fall into a coma by day 3. Full money back guarantee - unless coma results in PVS - in which case no liability is accepted .... for anything. £45,000 - which is as low as I can go and is made up as follows -

My back pocket £45,000
Other £0

Bring your own tea and biscuits

Obviously this course is off my own bat as Stalking School insurance wont cover it and not least I don't want to share all that dosh.

Not my finest work and its never a good idea to write in anger, frustration, sadness or euphoria but sometimes something has to give and, regretably, humour with sarcasm is the most positive spin I can put on this just now. Sincere apologies for adding nothing to moving reasoned debate forward.

Am I allowed to LOL?

 

[Moray Outfitting]

No - I'm having a strop!

 

[Peterm]

I retract my LOL

 

[Paul at Fechan]

The board decides who has the admin contract and BASC currently has it.

in other words BASC runs the show... glad we cleared that up, phew!

 

[Moray Outfitting]

Paul, like I said above.

Is Barony College one of the Supporting Organisations of DMQ and one of the board members? Not a barbed question, just would personally like to clarify.

 

[Paul at Fechan]

we are a supporting organisation of DMQ

 

[6pointer]

I see that on a few pages there are direct links to BASC and BDS is this luck or design [TABLE="class: gentable"]
[TR]
[TD="class: tdfaq1"]How do I register ?
[/TD]
[TD="class: tdfaq2"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: wysiwyg_cms_table"]Contact an Assessment Centre for a registration form.
[/TD]
[TD="class: wysiwyg_cms_table"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: wysiwyg_cms_table"]What will it cost ?
[/TD]
[TD="class: wysiwyg_cms_table"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: wysiwyg_cms_table"]This depends on which Assessment Centre you register with. The DMQ element of any registration fee is the same for all Assessment Centres and covers only administration costs. If you need to attend a training course the fees are payable to the centre offering the training, there is no DMQ charge. We recommend that all candidates for DSC1 should consider attending a training course before sitting the DSC1 assessment. All candidate fees are payable direct to the training provider or assessment centre, not to DMQ.
[/TD]
[TD="class: wysiwyg_cms_table"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: wysiwyg_cms_table"]Where can I do it ?
[/TD]
[TD="class: wysiwyg_cms_table"]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: wysiwyg_cms_table"]College based Assessment Centres usually offer assessment at one or two venues. Both BASC and BDS have venues round the country and they publish the dates of events.

But this post was more about the need for clarification regards the Pre Courses that seem to be popping up.

My take on it is this if you are looking to do your lev 1 dsc then go to an assessment centre that will deliver all you need on the one coarse this would show they are giving out the correct material and are confident you will succeed with out the need to pay a high price twice for the same material.

[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[Moray Outfitting]

Paul - many thanks. And is it correct to assume they are on the board? That being the case are the points you raise yours personally and/or those of Barony College? Getting a bit grammatically complex, but given that position, have you/ the college raised concerns at the board regards the alleged domination by BASC?

Again not stirring things, but this is something that I have found confusing in your previous posts on the topic. Its very hard to convey inflection and context by written word - I can only assure you this isnt intended as some form of 'duel', but an attempt to fathom the context of your posts.

6 Pointer - apologies for divergence from thread intent. You are right and strictly things are distinct, but it perhaps illustrates the point I made about the debate not progressing and continuing to crop up.

In terms of the pre DSC1 courses or any other allied courses, there is a quasi open market on training. Strictly anyone can present themselves as a trainer. To deliver a formal assessment you need an Assessor present - some providers have an Assessor as a core member of the business, others sub contract Assessors in as required. I understand the BDS retain copyright on the question banks - so any trainer using those would be obliged to deal with the BDS to stay straight.

The extent of DMQ's control is over the Assessor - who ultimately must follow the terms of his appointment and answers via their Assessment Centre to DMQ. A pre DSC1 course would not necessarily have an Assessor present ( sounding like a Sir Humphrey speech in Yes Minister here ).

Within that market courses are only going to run if people wish to go on them. If there is no interest the courses vanish. A key point in your proposition is whether attendees are well served by such courses - that is a very good query.

The content and nature of courses varies - including those for DSC1. Each provider has something a bit different to offer. There is arguably some occasional hyped marketing going on in some instances - and this is also an area worthy of debate. Ultimately people are only likely to attend one course and if they enjoy it/ pass etc then its arguable it met their wishes. Little comparison is possible on that basis. This makes open, fair and honest debate so important - it can be a key factor in decision making.

This is where SD plays a useful role - an open Forum where those considering their options have chance to get information - at present the subject gets so heated that good info is hard to find and droves of people are driven away from properly using the forum. That's the centre of my angst at the way these things go - too many are excluded ( on all sides of the fence ), false assumptions become received wisdom via repetition and those seeking details just face a muddle.

From experience, there is no one 'standard issue DSC1 candidate' - everyone is a bit different. For some a pre DSC1 course could be very useful and to them worth every penny. It is their mindset that needs to be considered. Does everyone need it - absolutely not and moves to market such courses as universal requirements would be disingenuous.

Hence believe your idea in the thread was a good one - its the direction that is the issue.

In terms of pricing, the market prevails - look at the changes by the BDS over the last few years.

I would love this thread or another to explore an open friendly debate on how SD can help people with such choices - if they wish.

 

[Paul at Fechan]

I have never heard of Barony being on the board as such, my comments are my own as they always are though. As for an 'alleged domination' theory, I'm not sure that's what I was going on about previously but credit to BASC in terms of marketing and strategy if that what we're calling it now!

Obviously going back a bit now in this thread, I support training and certification where it has purpose, value and there is a need for it. In Scotland to just put things in focus, the DMG's now see that if it can be demonstrated that deer stalkers are taking up the DSC1 / 2 voluntarily then there should be no need to officially regulate of legislate to force it upon the stalking community. That we can agree is the best way forward here.

Davie's point (the op) is possibly being missed and it's important. What he and I suspect the DMG's through the feeling of their members in Scotland want is a direct path of least resistance for deer stalkers to achieve level 1. We all know the DSC1 course can be studied for at home with the provision of good pre-course materials but some people need a classroom and structured learning environment this is true. Candidates that self study turn up ready to pass and it's that simple, you don't need any more that theory and a bit of practice with a rifle before hand. What the DMG's are doing now is arranging properly timetabled training days with assessment only options using the numbers of members to negotiate a much better training and assessment deal than we can provide. I say WE as in all the providers.

This means that the DMG's are taking on price and privately sourcing the best deal for their members, forget fancy classrooms and show because if the jocks on the ground want the best price and a DMG can arrange that, that's where they'll go! Quite right too with the current financial climate.

 

[Moray Outfitting]

Paul

Thank you for the response - much appreciated.

Perhaps PeterM could confirm who is on the board?

Your previous comment - 'in other words BASC runs the show... glad we cleared that up, phew!'
was where I founded the 'domination' wording - entirely my doing and possibly could have chosen better. However, that was the impression created by that phrase from you ( in my mind ) - you imply you hadnt intended such a degree of wording. But domination wording my bad as above, not aware any 'we' are now calling it that!

Part of what I was driving at is that as part of Barony college you appeared to be in a position to well voice concerns about BASC over-reaching its role within DMQ. So again thank you for clarification. My only real remaining concern stemmed from that - from the nature of your comments I had wondered if there were some form of inside knowledge upon which you were basing things - you have clarified that - yet again, thank you.

On that basis I have naturally to say I disagree with you as UK corporate legislation and practise - with a legal obligation upon the board of such companies and not least their auditors would, whilst not precluding 'wrong doing' would certainly create potential statutory difficulties if the level of control exherted by BASC within DMQ was at the level you previously suggested. I do not believe that is the case.

Regards your other comments, largely agree with what you say. And outwith this thread recall your recurrent assertion that education is about the individual and what works for them - spot on in my view.

 

[Paul at Fechan]

wow, fair play! cheers and noted

 

[stalkinginengland]

With the greatest respect mark , you know a hell of lot about deer considering you have only had your DMQ L2 6 months , thinking about it I was the one who told you how to go about it !

With the greatest of respect Lee I had to retake it as my original one that I took 18 years ago had run out and I had not had the need to look into it. I took it twice 2 years apart as I was delivering it as part of the level 2 gamekeeping and woodland management course which at the time was a C&G qualification and not an assessment certificate . I was also as well as being an instructor an assessor with D32 D33,D34 D36 and 7306 teaching qualification all of which are still valid I believe together with others, so I am more than qualified. In fact I was credited with writing the level 2 and 3 Gamekeeping and woodland management handbook for QFI around 16 years ago which included deer. So Lee if you want to score points be my guest, but I do know enough to run and assess DSC level 1 and 2 thanks.

Mark

 

[French David]

I've taken my pre DSC and pass my DSC1, with Mark from stalkinginengland. The course and teaching was great. Mark has taken a lot of time to make sure that every body had the best knowledge and the best preparation to the exam.
Looking for my DSC2 with stalking in england.
Marc don't change anything.

 

[6pointer]

I am not sure MO but think that the board has three BASC BDS and NGO. These three will make the major decisions.
But again education is something we all need but the way we get educated can be influenced by marketing.
At this moment in time if you feel you cannot learn on a full coarse of three to four day then a pre assessment day might be an option.
But stats show a 90+ % pas rate with just a standard coarse and that includes people with learning difficulty,s.
French David if you needed a pre coarse i would think you might have been better asking for help or a translator if you are in fact French.

May i say for those that are confused the pre Assessment is not the learning done one or two days before the assessment that's a normal coarse it is a completely different coarse.

Peter M It is my belief and i hope yours that all no matter what there financial background should be able to continue to manage our deer properly.

May be it is time to stop all this Incestuous behaviour and just go down the public route.??

 

[stalkinginengland]

I am not sure MO but think that the board has three BASC BDS and NGO. These three will make the major decisions.
But again education is something we all need but the way we get educated can be influenced by marketing.
At this moment in time if you feel you cannot learn on a full coarse of three to four day then a pre assessment day might be an option.
But stats show a 90+ % pas rate with just a standard coarse and that includes people with learning difficulty,s.
French David if you needed a pre coarse i would think you might have been better asking for help or a translator if you are in fact French.

May i say for those that are confused the pre Assessment is not the learning done one or two days before the assment thats a normal coarse it is a completly diffenrt coarse.

Peter M

David is French and that was a part of it but thats not the issue. There are many people out there, I think there were 2 on davids course, who had never stalked but liked the idea. Once they had done the course both fell head over heals with it.

I did stop advertising it as I took the same view after a while but since then have had clients who have asked for it and stressed that they do not want a full level 1 with the assessment and that they feel they would like to do some stalking and get their hands dirty before they try the level 1, which I suppose is the right way of doing it

Mark

 

[.243Ady]

I am not sure MO but think that the board has three BASC BDS and NGO. These three will make the major decisions.
But again education is something we all need but the way we get educated can be influenced by marketing.
At this moment in time if you feel you cannot learn on a full coarse of three to four day then a pre assessment day might be an option.
But stats show a 90+ % pas rate with just a standard coarse and that includes people with learning difficulty,s.
French David if you needed a pre coarse i would think you might have been better asking for help or a translator if you are in fact French.

May i say for those that are confused the pre Assessment is not the learning done one or two days before the assessment that's a normal coarse it is a completely different coarse.

Peter M It is my belief and i hope yours that all no matter what there financial background should be able to continue to manage our deer properly.

May be it is time to stop all this Incestuous behaviour and just go down the public route.??

I think the problem is with the course name, If it was called "Introduction to deer stalking" no problems , And yes I passed my DSC 1 course with Mark at deerstalkinginengland, a good teacher and a passion for country life, and no I am not French. Whats the point in going and getting your DSC 1 then finding out actually deer stalking is not for you.