Anyone want to warn me away from any of this kit?

[Uncle Norm]

Whilst I agree with all who recommend a second-hand fixed power scope, there is always the exception that proves the rule.... one of my regular stalking partners has a Hawke variable with illuminated reticule on his .270 and has used it without problems for several years. I have another pal who uses one on his .243 but that doesn't get a lot of use. Whilst I am not making any recommendation for Hawke on centre-fires, experience tells me that they work for some.

 

[neutron619]

To reply to the comments since my last response:

Notwithstanding all the negative comments about your choice of scope, I have said Hawke scope adorning my .22, an HK5158 if I remember rightly, IR etc. It's only been on the rifle long enough to zero it and already I realize it's overkill for what I need. The scope is effectively brand new.
If you decide this scope could work for you, PM me, I'll not be asking very much for it.

Thank you - I just looked it up with the model number and I'll consider it. As I said to one other chap who kindly sent me a PM with a scope offer, until I have an FAC in my hand, I can't be sure that this is all going to go ahead as I plan. The police told me what they wanted (DSC1 + booking) and they are about to receive evidence of both. However, I do have some depression in my medical record, which they always ask questions about and this tends to make my applications a slow, laborious process whilst they re-investigate everything every time. I expect to be buying all of this stuff in the 3rd/4th week of October - if it's still available then, I'll be interested to hear what you're asking.

nothing Hawke should be on a wish list

get a decent 2nd hand german optic fixed mag

I'm hearing this a lot. I respect the view, but I'm not seeing much that backs it up. Just to be difficult, could someone please list in bullet point form what properties a "2nd hand german optic fixed mag" has which a Hawke scope does not and how they came to that conclusion? I'm perfectly prepared to change my ideas, if someone can explain to me the defect / problem with the scope I've suggested (see OP) and give evidence for it. (I've no loyalty to Hawke, it's just what the local shop showed me - along with a £1500 scope - and even pointed outside on a grey day, I couldn't see the advantage of the £1500 one.)

My money would go on a 6.5 x 55, 30.06 or 308 cal. Tikka or Sako both excellent Accurate makes and calibres, check out the secondhand market.

I commented on the .30-06 above. 6.5x55mm - also slow and heavy - is my fallback plan if the police play silly buggers with calibre (you never know).

Scopes - Hawke really are ok for rimmies, if you want to keep it, go for a reasonable quality scope as funds allow, it really pays off, you don't want to have to buy another in a short amount of time, if your stalking is woodland 6x42 is perfect.

Recognising the frequency with which people have been saying 6x42mm - could someone explain why it's considered good for woodland stalking? I have been told by others that you want the low magnification to be as low as possible, so that target acquisition is easier and aiming feels more stable. I have been working on the basis of a 3-9x50mm for this reason.

You don't need a bipod, put that money towards the rifle or on a scope

Noted. I would like one, given how much I've enjoyed shooting range days and the fact that they make shooting prone easier, but I may delay as you suggest and spend more on the scope.

Given your November deadline, if you'd like to borrow my Zeiss while you wait for the right scope to turn up, you'd be very welcome. I don't have any spare mounts, but the scope has a 1" tube.

Thank you for your kind offer - with reference to my comment about having the FAC in my hand above, perhaps I could send you a message as and when the paperwork is sorted if this is something I could use?

So far as bullets, consider the 150gr.

I am considering these - I'll try the Geco first as they're cheap, but I vary between thinking the slightly flatter 150gr will be easier to shoot at longer range and wanting to preserve meat as far as possible by using a heavier bullet. I'm sure I'll try both in time and let what the rifle wants to eat and what happens to my quarry guide me.

From your introduction and the desire to keep your hearing, I take it when you say "musician" you are talking classical, not metal head?

Indeed - a lover of loud noises perhaps, thoguh unmoderated gunfire is not my favourite thing: I play the organ and piano, compose and quite often sing.

Thanks again guys,

Adam.

 

[Cris]

Look at what's important.

Rife has to be accurate but make not so important as accurate entry level rifles both new and used don't have to cost a fortune. To many people worry or are snobbish about makes.

Optics are very important both on the rifle and in your hand. Binoculars especially as you will find them in front of your eyes allot and eye strain is a real issue. Also definition in poor light will frustrate you as this is the UK and light conditions at any time of day can be less than ideal.

Mod yes but you could live with cheap ear protection early on unless land owners insist that you have one.

Knives well at under a fiver from BushWear its a no brainer so don't wast money here until you have spare cash.

Caliber, well 308 has killed reliably over the years but you have recognised the ballistic caricature of a slow bullet arching more than some so just know your ballistics well. Confidence is the most important point.

Most other things you could make or get as you progress and find you need or want.

 

[Richard S]

I do have some depression in my medical record, which they always ask questions about and this tends to make my applications a slow, laborious process


I also suffer from depression, but it didn't raise any issues with my FAC application other than the requirement for a letter from my GP.

​Richard

 

[finnbear270]

Second hand or "Preloved" from a source that can be trusted.

 

[Spix]

Adam, You can squeeze an extra drop of blood out of the stone, for some kit, if buying new, via topcashback, e.g. the Minox BV 8x42 bins at fotosense who are giving back about £4.00, I think, via tcb.

 

[multiman]

I would also advise against the Hawke scope on a .308. I can say this from experiance I had one of their top of the range ones on mine when I first got it.... I sold it on ebay and bought a Secondhand Leupold VX2 for the same price... What a difference.
As for rifle I have a remmy 700, CZ and a secondhand Tikka M690. The Tikka was the best buy its well made unlike some of the newer stuff built down to price.
I would not rule out the secondhand rifle market as long as you can inspect it first.

Good luck and enjoy your journey

 

[willie_gunn]

Adam

Regarding your point about "why second hand German optics", the reasons largely come down to reliability, robustness, reputation and resale value.

Other scopes may perform as well during the middle of the day, but typically the better European optics will give a few more minutes either side of dawn or dusk. Whether this is sufficient reason to pay the price tag is a personal choice. German (and here I am including Austrian) scopes are built for a job, not for a price. Their post sales service is generally better, hence why the resale value remains high - you won't have a problem either finding someone to repair a German scope or finding someone to buy it, should you decide to sell. I happen to like Zeiss scopes because they specialise in optics - whether for spectacles, sporting, scientific or medical purposes. That said, I also have Swaro and Leica binoculars and I would be hard pushed to really tell any of them apart in terms of quality. Each make will have its own adherents, but any of the top makes will do the job.

Don't ignore the other makes (Steiner, Minox, Kaps, Peccar, Kahles, Leupold, etc) but for all-round purposes I think the top three are tough to beat. You are likely to recoup any investment in a second-hand German scope, should you decide to sell, whereas with some other makes you may find depreciation is a big factor.

So far as "why 6x42", that's really because it will transmit as much light (or more) as your eye can use, it hits the right balance between field of view and magnification, it has sufficient magnification for anything you'll require in the woods and (mostly) on the hill, is light, compact, and contains little that will go wrong compared to a variable mag and/or illuminated reticule. Oh, and it's a nice traditional scope too.

willie_gunn

 

[Irish Bob]

Hello chaps,

Happily, My Mrs and I came up with a reasonable financial arrangement for paying for stalking gear today, so I'm able to start planning what I want to buy with a number in mind - that number is £1200. I already have a pretty good idea of the setup I want, so this post is to ask whether anyone knows any reasons I shouldn't buy the equipment I've listed.

That said, I am only interested in hearing reasons such as "this item is known to be unreliable" or "this item has a known manufacturing / design defect" and the like. I respect the extensive experience of others here and apologise if this offends, but I am not interested in hearing from anyone who thinks I should be spending the money in vastly different proportions (i.e. a £200 rifle and a £700 scope) or who feels that any of the brands I've listed are crap but can't give a specific reason why the particular model I've listed is likely to prove faulty / unreliable / unsuitable. I would love to be able to splash out £10,000 on a stalking setup and to be able to post here in proper "willy-waving" fashion about a custom rifle an obscure (but appropriate) calibre and Zeiss optics worth more than my house and so on - it isn't going to happen.

My criteria for the stuff I've listed below is as follows:

• I will hopefully be hunting all six UK species at some point, but I know that I will initially have the opportunity to go after Muntjac, Roe, Fallow and Red. I want one gun for all of that and to have the possibility of using it for boar later on, if I feel so inclined. Ergo, I want a .308.
• I will be shooting for the table, occasionally, rather than in any kind of professional capacity.
• I want to run a "slow and heavy" bullet - probably an ordinary softpoint, but we'll see. I am convinced by the argument of using a slow and heavy bullet (i.e. 170gr from a .308 @ 2500fps) rather than a light, fast one (i.e. 130gr from a .270 @ 3000fps) as being the most likely to reduce meat damage. I recognise that shot placement is also key. I also recognise that others will have different opinions, but I owe it to the people who have given their time to teach me what little I know to try their way first.
• Related to the above, I have a kid on the way and won't get to do a lot of stalking in the next year or so. Frequency of trips out will increase in time. That's important because I particularly want to maximise the amount of food I get from each carcass - stalking will be a way of finding relatively cheap meat, learning to hunt and having fun at the same time.
• Most of my stalking will be done during daylight hours, at short range in a woodland setting. I don't need expensive optics which give me maximum shooting time or maximum detail at dawn or dusk. For one, I'm a wildfowler at heart - if I have to go home with nothing, so be it. For two, I can't tell the difference between a £150 scope and a £1500 one at this point - I'm still learning all this stuff - so spending the extra £1350 is wasted on me.
• I'm a musician in other areas of my existence. This is a particularly bad combination with centrefire rifles, so I need a moderator as effective as possible if I'm to stalk without ear defenders and keep my hearing in any kind of useable state.

Here is the stuff which I believe fulfils the needs I've listed:

• Remington 700 SPS in .308 (24" barrel; 1-in-10" twist to stabilize heavy bullets; might get the detatchable magazine version if there is one).
• Hawke Panorama EV 3-9x50mm "etched" scope. (I will take advice on the kind of reticle to get - I've played with the Hawke "sighting" program but it hasn't helped point me towards one or another, but I'd like to pick one of the ones that has some kind of gradations for longer range shooting - just in case - since a low velocity .308 bullet drops reasonably fast).
• Wildcat Predator 12 Moderator with a good sized expansion tube. (I realise this will be heavy, as will the overall setup - I don't mind. It will maximise suppression, absorb recoil and I can carry a 9lb wildfowling gun happily enough.)
• Leupold scope rings / mounts.

I think that lot comes to somewhere in the region of £1150. My local shop has a good deal on the Geco 170gr softpoints at the moment. I've shot them comfortably at a range day and seen a Roe cleanly killed with them, with little to no damage on inspection barring a hole straight through, so I'll start there and find something else if they don't work out.

I'm still to find a good, affordable bipod - any recommendations will be welcome.

I also need to find a sling - preferably a synthetic one with a wide strap, some kind of "friction-giving" surface like rubber to stop it slipping off my shoulder and one with a bit of "give" to make the carry easier. I know the kind I want, but it's hard to describe beyond what I've just written.

I think I've sorted out other accessories - knife (and stone), binos, bag, sticks and the like, but if anyone wants to suggest items I've forgotten, I'll either say that I'm aware of them or add them to my "to buy" list.

Sorry for the bit at the top. I know that in spite of saying that, someone will come along and tell me to buy some kind of hugely expensive scope at the expense of the rifle I want. I understand the arguments and one day I will, but for now I just need enough to get started in the way that seems good to me (and those who have taught me, who understand what I want to do). I fully expect to learn what works and what doesn't as time goes by.

With thanks for any warnings, pointers or comparable alternatives you can suggest,

Adam.

Why the feck are you buying new? The only reason for doing so is you want the latest thing that has not yet hit the second hand market.

With the exception of a Sako finfire varmint, all my stuff is second, and in some cases, third or more hand. I have top of the line stuff and in nearly all cases paid less than half what it cost new. Moreover, some of the stuff looks like new.

 

[Irish Bob]

http://www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk/showthread.php/69565-Meopta-Meopro

Here is a good scope.

You now have £920 to spend on the rifle and mod.

 

[Brithunter]

Whilst I have never used or even tried a Hawke higher end, in their range that is, scope I did buy a Hawke Nite-Eye variable scope to try out and frankly it was rubbish. Total waste of money and time IMHO.

You stated that you will be woodland stalking then the clarity and light transmission WILL BE VITAL for you and this means not only the best lenses but also the best coatings to get this. Hawke just do not stack up in this department.

In my honest opinion a 6x or 7x scope is about perfect. In fact a good 4x scope performs well in woodland. Deer like the dawn and dusk and it's surprising just how dark a mature wood can be in the middle of summer during the day. A reticle designed for such use is important and they were not always illuminated .

Less popular now this German Tri Post reticle :-



was popular with woodland stalkers in the a past. That particular one is fitted in a Khales 4L2 (4x36) scope.



This reticle is in a Leupold M8 Compact scope also of 4x magnification and IMHO is not really suitable for UK woodland stalking as the reticle is just too fine and is easily lost in the gloom. Yes I did try it during the Summer Row Buck season one year and after a couple of outings switched it to a more suitable scope.

As some can attest part of my collection is made up of scopes but I have only retained those that I feel are actually usable. The ones like the Hawke and modern Tascos, Nikko Stirlings have been disposed of.

Hopefully I'll make it down to Bisley in October to thin out those that are on the boarder line for me and frankly I have too many just sitting here taking up space but I digress .

I learnt the hard way after having to pass up the shot due to scopes not being good enough so after the second time it happened I started to upgrade my scopes. being like you on a restricted budget I sought out good used scopes and now have examples from Meopta, Pecar, Khales, Carl Zeiss, Lisenfeld, Schmidt & Bender Zeiss Jena, Leupold, Nikon, a couple of Tasco Titans, Simmons, Weaver and a small collection of the older Nikko Stirling scopes that Parker-Hale were the agents for.

Some like the Tasco #707 are not suitable for stalking being a pure target scope. I did at one time have a nice 4x32 Swaroski scope but it went to a fellow collector for a classic stalking rifle he had.

Likewise good binoculars are vital. My regular stalking ones are a pair of Viking 8x45 Roof Prism ones I bought from the RSPB reserves shop at Pulborough Brooks after trying them out around the reserve for a day. I could not stretch to Swaroski SLC's and these were the best I could find for the price at the time and cost me just less than half the price of the SLC's at the time.

In my own .308 rifle I found that the Speer 165 Grain (#2035) was excellent for deer and have used it on Muntjac, Roe and Fallow. For a time I used the Nosler 165 Grain ballistic Tip but one place I stalked did not like the Ballistic Tips so switched to the Speer to avoid any hassle there.. Although I never had any "blown up carcases" that one hears about it just seemed easier if I wished to continue stalking with him.

Good luck with your search have fun and enjoy the process.

 

[finnbear270]

Kev, that post ret is the one I used on L1, I still have a hankering for another one, Neutron PM'd you.

 

[Timney]

The only one that sets alarm bells ringing for me is the Hawke scope. That is not really a suitable scope for a 308.
Look for a used fixed mag such as a Meopta, Hungarian Schmidt, Docter, Optimate, Leupold, Burris, etc..
Avoid the Hawke!
Minox BV 8x42 binos are about £150 and are about as good as you can get! Mora clipper knives are awesome for about £10 (get and orange stainless one!)
Have a look at my 'Monkey sticks' thread for a cheap but awesome set of sticks. Butler creek neoprene sling is perfect.
I think Sportsman guncentre have some very reduced Nikon scopes too.
A very sensible post which shows you are putting some serious and logical thought into your outlay.
Good luck.
MS

+1 Butler creek neoprene sling (camo or black) with rubberised backing is all you need. I just bought one for £15 a few days ago, but dont go for the extra bouncy one as it is a pain in the butt! Mora clipper knives are excellent value and sharp albeit they tarnish quickly. Also agree on the Minox, they are superb VFM. My dad has just bought a pair and I would say they are comparable in performance to the top end Binos for a fraction of the cost, and made in germany to boot. I have a Hawke 3-9x40 (i think) nighteye on my rimmy and it is absolutely naff! Much better scopes for the same money out there.

 

[bewsher500]

I'm hearing this a lot. I respect the view, but I'm not seeing much that backs it up. Just to be difficult, could someone please list in bullet point form what properties a "2nd hand german optic fixed mag" has which a Hawke scope does not and how they came to that conclusion? I'm perfectly prepared to change my ideas, if someone can explain to me the defect / problem with the scope I've suggested (see OP) and give evidence for it. (I've no loyalty to Hawke, it's just what the local shop showed me - along with a £1500 scope - and even pointed outside on a grey day, I couldn't see the advantage of the £1500 one.).

· Build quality – generally better quality materials from coatings to metals
· Holding zero, consistency of tracking using the turrets
· Impact resistance (see above!)
· Lens quality- light gathering/clarity/sight picture edge to edge
· Price retention (a £300 S&B will still be worth £250-300 in 5 or even 10 years’ time!)
· Parallax – my biggest beef. Cheap scopes with fancy reticules that produce massive parallax error with the smallest of head movement.

I have had most cheap scopes at one point or other, even some of the older lower end scopes are better made and perform better than some of the newer "mid range" offerings from Deben.
when you have S&B, Meopta, Zeiss and similar in the sub £500 range you really don't need to spend £1000's to get a decent scope

there are plenty of success stories of cheap scopes on centre fire rifles as well as horror stories. why risk it?
​
My analogy is a simple one. I would rather have a second hand Audi, VW than a brand new Dacia or Kia!!

 

[Boarboy]

I would look for a better quality second hand scope, just my opinion.
​

 

[limulus]

My woodland stalking set up:
.308 brno zkk601 deluxe with std trigger using 150gr btsp with 44gr N140 behind them.
T8 mod
Edgar bros 8x56 in sportsmatch mounts
Leupold wind river 8x42 binos

total cost?

£640 all 2nd hand except the binos

add a bit for a sling(£10off here)

The rifle shoots better than I can and the scope does exactly what it says on the box. The leupold binos see we'll past an hour after sunset and an hour before sunrise.
in my experience (SnB zeiss swarro etc etc) none of them will allow to shoot a target that you can see with your binos once the light has gone, this is an artefact of seeing in stereo compared to the scope.

spend the rest if your budget on more stalking, you'll end up with more venison in the freezer and a whole lot more enjoyment.

Tony

 

[Brithunter]

Kev, that post ret is the one I used on L1, I still have a hankering for another one, Neutron PM'd you.

Hmm well I am assuming that you mean the retice and not the L1 rifle?

I have often seen it referred to as the "Sniper Reticle". Nikko Stirling offered a "post and cross hair reticle in in their "Special" and "Special Sporting" scopes. I have one of them in 4x32 with it and one in 6x32 with it. Whelen detested the "pointed Picket" post type reticle.

Depending upon scope size I may have one laying around. Most of mine are older so smaller scopes than seem to be popular today.

 

[Dodder]

My advise (for what its worth) is to go for an S&B 8x56. If you get a decent s/h one and buy sensibly you will always get your money back. They are cracking scopes which will do pretty much everything except perhaps long range vermin shooting of small quarry such as crows and magpies. The optics and build quality are superb - you wont be disappointed!

 

[bogtrotter]

As others have said buy the best you can afford and the best is German, however reading some posts some seem to have little idea of what its like to have a limited amount of cash, or priority's that, that mean stalking gear has to take second place.


I have a Dowling and Rowe which has sat atop of my .243 for the last eight years , I am a pro stalker and this rifle doubles as an estate rifle for clients, and as such will probably see more use and abuse than most recreational stalkers kit.

The scope has been trouble free has never lost zero, and has good twilight capability's .
I don't know who makes optics for Dowling and Rowe nor what the correct price of this scope would be, I bought it as bankrupt stock and it cost the Princely sum of £35 not a bad investment.

 

[DaveK]

Just to add an alternative on the "don't buy a hawke buy a decent second hand German optic". Have a look for a used Simmons Whitetail Classic Super Night View in 6.5-20x50. Look for the Phillipines made model. They're a superb bit of glass, robust and can be had for the price of a hawke.

I had a Hawke Panorama on my .22 hornet. Excellent in ideal light conditions but not so good at last light and in a reasonable amount of sun tends to white out.