Big Game Hunting: Reconciling Conflicting Points-of-View

[neutron619]

Ok - I appreciate the sensitivities of various members here on the subject of big game hunting, so I want to state at the outset that this is not intended to be a provocative, pot-stirring question. On the contrary, I really am interested in understanding the situation as regards African hunting for big / dangerous game because I think my own perception is rather polarised by what I read in various sections of the media and what I see on hunting forums.

My question is hard to put into a single phrase, but is to try an understand how the management of wildlife and hunting go hand in hand in Africa and I'd be grateful to hear other members' experiences on the subject.

I should say at this point that I have no intention of going hunting in Africa and no interest in it at all, really, beyond trying to gain a clearer picture of the way in which European hunters are able to visit to hunt.

On the one side, I read in the newspapers and on the web about the "terrible" problems with poachers killing all manner of species for their bits and pieces, usually in relation to the smuggling trade that supports the practice of Chinese traditional medicine.

On the other side, I see advertised in the Deer journal of the BDS, trips to Africa for safari hunts up to and including the pursuit of bull elephants and big cats, advertised for somewhat substantial sums, but presumably legally, since the journal prints them in the first place.

Can someone help me to understand how these points of view can be reconciled?

In this country, we cull individual deer for the benefit of the species (as well as to eat, use as trophies, etc.) - fair enough. Is this also the case in Africa? Do they have cull plans for bull Elephants (for example) within the reserves and national parks and is it the opportunity to participate in the culling which is advertised to European hunters in the shooting magazines?

Or is it the case that what are referred to in the media as "poachers" might easily be foreign hunters who happen to have booked a trip with the "wrong" safari organisers? Is it easy to discern who are the "legal" groups offering such hunting and who are those who are not?

Again - I'm not trying to be provocative, but at the moment I can't square the circle between seemingly above-board advertised elephant hunts on the one hand and park rangers complaining of poaching on the other. We manage deer by culling in this country and I'm all in favour of that (and particularly of eating them) but I don't know what arrangements exist in Africa, so I can't draw any conclusion about whether there's a "moderate" view point in the middle, simillar to ours with deer, which allows both managed hunting and continued protection of the species.

I will appreciate any insights members here can offer - I'm not interested in moralizing, only in finding out what structures and arrangements exist for hunters and for conservation.

Adam.

 

[Klenchblaize]

For someone who's not interested in hunting big/dangerous game you've sure got a lot on your mind Adam!

I'll stick to reading about it as practised in the early to middle part of the last Century.

Cheers

K

 

[neutron619]

For someone who's not interested in hunting big/dangerous game you've sure got a lot on your mind Adam!

I'll stick to reading about it as practised in the early to middle part of the last Century.

Cheers

K

I guess I'm just a curious type

 

[Saugmann]

Hi Adam,

I've only been to Africa three times (2xSA and 1xCAR), so I'm by no means an expert. But, I'll give you my two pence worth anyway. Knowledge picked when travelling in Africa, talking to PHs, conservation officers and other hunters.

Firstly, what we refer to as Africa is the second largest continent with about 52 countries (wikipedia) so it's probably difficult to generalise about what's going on there. I'll generalise anyway.

In parks, game is managed like we do in the UK. In general, where game is hunted free range, governments set quotas for cull species and numbers for wider conservation. Hunters can then buy licenses to shoot in line with the cull figures. Anyone who have been involved in counting and culling animals will know it's difficult to get exactly right, and I suppose the same is true in Africa.

Poachers range from local folks who poach to survive and commercial poachers who poach to make money. The latter is often militia men armed for war, looking for an additional income. Given the more commercial scale of their venture, they can make big impact on game population. Having said that, locals poaching with snares on a large scale can also devastate an area. I think cases where hunters book the wrong PH and involuntarily become poachers are very rare.

Poaching will of course interfere with game management. How severe depends on the scale of poaching.

I think everyone (apart from poachers and takers of their goods) will agree that poaching is bad. Where you find people disagreeing, is with regards to legal hunting and setting of cull quotas and the philosophy behind game management and conservation.

Have a look at this interesting article about conservation and game management in Africa. I think it will help answer your question in a manner I'm not able to http://www.moderngamekeeping.com/2012/08/31/conservation-from-other-continents/

Chris Pike is extremely knowledgable and a great guy.

Hope this helped.


​Christian

 

[Erik Hamburger]

The ideal African conservation 'model' is that if someone is prepared to pay say $50,000 to shoot ONE prime bull elephant, than that money can be used to finance an anti-poaching team of local people for a year. So the conservation of the species is served by taking out the odd 'cull' animal for a high fee.
There are also many reserves, sometimes enclosed, where specific species need to be managed actively as there may be no Apex predators. In farming area's crop protection may also be a good reason to hunt African game. And than there is the so-called 'canned hunting', where for example Lions in a relatively small fenced enclosure are basicly 'farmed' so rich hunting tourists can than, for a high fee, shoot a cornered lion in semi-natural conditions. A bit like the British tweedy game shooting scene really, and morally and ethically not so different.
If the meat produced from an African cull hunt is used to feed local people than again I see no ethical issues.
I support the principle of using money generated by shooting/hunting for conservation- whether that is on an English game shoot or an African 'consession'.

 

[countrryboy]

Eric is bang on the money above.

Must admit i used to be like u Adam and never agreed with it or understood why folk would do it, understand it now and would love to go sometime (if i win the lottery) still see no attraction in culling a lion or elephant but to be fair they have to be culled so why not make money at it. Would love to go just for the atmosphere and just seeing and tracking the animals

Sort of similar to trophy hunting here too, by carefully manageing ur population thoose 1 or 2 beasts can put a massive amount of money into the area.

Also same as with deer or any wild animal, most will die of starvation, when the teeth get worn the harder it is to take food in so animals could be surrounded by food yet still starve to death as teeth are knackered, so far better for it to be culled out and get some money into the area.

The poaching is getting worse again in africa, seemingly a lot of new investment recently from China so a far biger demand and more smugling opportinites for that type of thing, if they actually encouraged hunting more even for some of the quite rare animals it could help the anti poachng effort putting more money into anti poaching patrols but also putting money into local communties so the poachers don't need the money the same.
I seen a program recently think the reckoned about 400 Black rhino poached last year, if only a few of those were shot under licence u could generate a massive ammount of money for research or satelite tracking of the rest of the rhino


The other thing with hunting safri's over wildlife safiris is the money involved, for hunting u have few paying a lot more and still living in fairy basic camps at times, with the camera safari's its volume of people, seen some mates photos where half a dozen landy's all chasing the same animals about all day, most off these 'wild' animals don't even bat an eyelid at motors now. Also needs a lot of infra structure to look after this volume of people
Some off the really popular tourist places actually have to buy in and release prey/food as so many predators as that's wot people want to see so buy in antelope etc to keep the higher population of predators

 

[John Gryphon]

I dont care about someone else`s views,I go hunting for my own reasons and don't need or care to discuss it with others from the other side...

Got email from friend in Pakistan yesterday in response to a dead fallow doe at my mates feet in a sent photo .."we don't shoot female deer ever"

In Australia we are "encouraged to shoot them" I answered.

Some moralise..who gives a f%$% just go and do what YOU want!

 

[neutron619]

Thank you Christian, Erik and countryboy for your responses - I appreciate you taking the time to explain things.

Must admit i used to be like u Adam and never agreed with it or understood why folk would do it, understand it now and would love to go sometime (if i win the lottery) still see no attraction in culling a lion or elephant but to be fair they have to be culled so why not make money at it.

Just thought I'd respond to this bit above. I don't have any particular desire to cull lions or elephants or other African game really. I'm happy to hunt and eat deer as and when I can and I'm certainly in the same boat - I don't have the kind of money one would need to go hunting in this way.

That said, I haven't really made up my mind about the ethics of this kind of hunting, so I can't say that I don't (or didn't) agree with it - I haven't had the information required to make an informed decision or test my feelings. I suppose that's part of my curiosity and why I asked.

I could say that I found johngryphon's response unnecessarily antagonistic (which it was) but his point about doing what is right for oneself is surely correct. Hunting is a personal thing and if I'm here, asking questions and trying to form an moral position (as he has done himself by rejecting those considerations as irrelevant), it must be a personal judgement, so I respect his argument to some degree.

Where we disagree (and where he undermines himself a second time by saying so) is in arguing that we need not discuss these things with others. I think such discussion is invaluable - else how are those new to hunting to hear and read the pointers which can help them work out their own feelings on the subject? Morals and ethics are defined by the society in which they exist (which is why knowing what I know now about the African situation has been helpful in starting to form a judgement here) and discussion is necessary to elucidate the societal general view and the extremes of the spectrum of opinion.

 

[TH4]

Try Your local library for a copy of At the hand of man. By Raymond Bonner. Written by a man who is not a hunter but explores the links between sport hunting and the positive effects it has on endangered and non endangered game in Africa. Compelling reading and a must read for anyone who hunt Africa.
Trevor.

 

[neutron619]

Try Your local library for a copy of At the hand of man. By Raymond Bonner. Written by a man who is not a hunter but explores the links between sport hunting and the positive effects it has on endangered and non endangered game in Africa. Compelling reading and a must read for anyone who hunt Africa.
Trevor.

Trevor, thank you for the recommendation. Thank you also to Christian whose link I will look at properly later when I get home from the office - I didn't specifically acknowledge it before.

 

[Erik Hamburger]

Try Your local library for a copy of At the hand of man. By Raymond Bonner. Written by a man who is not a hunter but explores the links between sport hunting and the positive effects it has on endangered and non endangered game in Africa. Compelling reading and a must read for anyone who hunt Africa.
Trevor.

Several copies are available on Am***n for £0.01 + £2.80 postage.

 

[neutron619]

Erik - thanks for the "prod" - just ordered one of them for the princely total of £2.81.

 

[Bushwack]

I dont care about someone else`s views,I go hunting for my own reasons and don't need or care to discuss it with others from the other side...

Got email from friend in Pakistan yesterday in response to a dead fallow doe at my mates feet in a sent photo .."we don't shoot female deer ever"

In Australia we are "encouraged to shoot them" I answered.

Some moralise..who gives a f%$% just go and do what YOU want!

...if you state it like this; its true...

Africa will see her problems in a few years time. Have a look at banning the Elephant culling operation in the Kruger National Park, it's chaos...The Park is already over populated with 7500 Elephants...they need to implement it again before a total breakdown occur in biodiversity, but because of inexperience and a lot of money from the 'greenies / bunny huggers' sh!t like this will occur.

 

[finnbear270]

Maybe John's reply was fueled a little by some no mark, commenting on his female cull animal, didn't sound like it was aimed in any particular way, or canted towards your very interesting post, Neutron.

 

[John Gryphon]

Maybe John's reply was fueled a little by some no mark, commenting on his female cull animal, didn't sound like it was aimed in any particular way, or canted towards your very interesting post, Neutron.

Very sensible analysis of my short and to the point post finnbear270....

 

[XYZ]

I am currently in the early stages of planning a trip to Africa in 2015 for the purpose of hunting. I am clear in my mind which animals I want to hunt and in the emails I have sent to potential outfitters I have clearly stated I want to hunt the right animal, not necessarily the biggest.

I personally have no time time for hunters that go armed with a tape measure alongside their rifle as they are purely trophy hunters who are there to shoot the biggest and best and I don't believe have any time for proper conservation or hunting ethics. If the oldest bull or ram happens to have the largest horns then so be it but I will be guided by my PH on what he believes is the correct animal. I prefer to hunt for the benefit of the species.

If there is an old male animal, past his breeding time who is holding off younger and stronger animals from his group of females then that will be the correct animal. It's common sense to hunt that beast. A tape measure will only come out at the conclusion of the hunt purely for interest.

I have no desire and will refuse to shoot for a vehicle. I want to earn the right to shoot at an animal, not take it based upon chance or by not putting in any effort. A hunting safari in Africa to me is not like going to a supermarket and picking the best off the shelves with no effort.

Regarding the Elephant, Rhino, Lion hunts, yes, I would participate but I can't afford it so it's not something I could comment on as there is very little chance for me to get into it and understand. From my outsiders view I would support any hunter who wishes to embark on such a venture providing it is done the right way and again, the right animal is taken. Shooting a drugged animal in territory which is unfamiliar to them is a practice worse than poaching in my opinion. Putting yourself on the ground and on eye level with that beast is the only way hunting these animals should be conducted otherwise it's just about collecting heads for the wall.

Unfortunately hunters receive a bad press because we go to Africa with the intent of shooting those animals so beloved of wildlife documentaries, the same animals we take our children to see in the zoo or wildlife parks. Hunters are condemned out of hand for our unseen and unrecognised contribution to wildlife conservation because non hunters can't or don't want to equate hunting and conservation in the same breath, they can't understand and the press don't want to be seen to be in support of us killing animals to save them.
Hunters are always turned into pariahs for shooting an elephant by the bunny huggers who are amazingly quick off the mark but amazingly reluctant to vent their spleen or attentions to those who are at the source of the ivory poaching trade - the people in the Far East who buy the products and so perpetuate the poaching business. These unknown people can't be attacked for their practices on such a scale as us hunters who legitimately go about their business and who contribute more to wildlife conservation in Africa than all of those armchair conservationists who donate £5 a month and can sleep well at night safe in the knowledge they are saving the universe.

There is no right or wrong answer, just different opinions. I have stated mine and the way in which I want to hunt in Africa. Some may agree, some may disagree but there should be no condemnation of another sportsman just because he chooses a different quarry or method of hunting.