375 zeroing approval

[scrumbag]

HME, I realise what you are saying is true. I just think we as shooters are too nice to the police and say "yes, thank you, don't want to cause trouble" too much. (It's actually because we are usually very reasonable people). The problem is, having lived abroad and seen first hand what decent licensing and legislation looks like. I believe large parts of the UK's firearms legislation-licensing edifice is not reasonable or actually serving of the shooting or non-shooting public is difficult to administer and probably leads to less safe gun control.

I can see I am going to have to put this down in a logical order. Bare with me...

 

[deerstalker.308]

It is a sad fact that in order to possess expanding ammunition for your 375 H&H in this country you will have to have it conditioned for shooting deer or Boar, fact. No amount of begging or pleading will change that unless your constabulary are willing to break from home office guidance, good luck on that one. Solids are a completely different kettle of fish and they should allow that for you to at least become aquatinted with your firearm before travelling, the only question then is where to have a play so to speak - one of the reasons that I built my range was to allow holders of heavy calibre's to do just that.

Many constabularies are aware of the poorly worded guidance but must adhere to it and getting them to condition a 375 for deer can be asking too much especially when you may have other calibres that are deer legal already. It is an often unknown fact that prior to the last firearms atrocity, a number of small changes to the guidance were being considered, one of them being the possession of expanding ammunition for zeroing with large calibres without the need for them to be conditioned for game in this country which would have solved much of the problem - unfortunately due to the uproar after the incident, all proposed amendments were dropped leaving us as we are now. As some of you may remember, when questioned, David Cameron was adamant that there would be no changes to the firearms licensing procedures, he was telling the truth.

HME

To be fair though, if you already have an open ticket, and suitable land appropriate for such calibres, then the fact you have been granted the calibre for use overseas, fulfils the HO guidelines. As far as I'm aware, they don't check that you have been and taken said firearm on a hunting trip, so, once you have justified ownership, that is the time you request open usage in the UK.
That is what I did, and yes, I had to convince them that I wasn't just shooting on the flat lands of the east, and that I had opportunities for its use in more mountainous environments (I know this isn't in the HO guidelines, but you can see how they are thinking). And low and behold, as with others I have a fully serviceable rifle conditioned for AOLQ which I use regularly for deer. I can zero without issue, I can own 250 rounds (not that I can afford to buy that many at a time).
Now I may have a tough time justifying keeping it at renewal if I haven't got some evidence of use overseas, or if my permissions have diminished or I have moved and changed forces, but for the time being, the system has worked.
What has been said by others, which I feel is a routinely made mistake by many, is that people frequently ask if we can have something, rather than telling the police what we want and why we want it. And a lot of people have p[iss poor reasoning for what they ask for, and no argument to back it up, so you can't blame the system for seeing through this sometimes.

 

[HME]

308

I'm not sure that's entirely the case regards HO requirements and I think you'd have a very hard time convincing a licensing dept that just because you had an open ticket (but closed in this situation) with a deer calibre on it, in this case a 300WM (which is way more than perhaps necessary), that you had satisfied them of your need for a 375 conditioned for deer. You convinced your constabulary of your suitability and need and that was based on your circumstances. I have suitable land, an open ticket with 308, 30-06 and 300 Win mag on it and when I wanted my 375 they were happy to grant it but with solids - I argued that as an RFD i could test the rifle with expanding to my hearts content and they didn't disagree, but the fact remains it had to be conditioned for deer and as I already had sufficient rifles to cope with my requirements it was initially declined and I wasn't concerned. This was all checked through with BASC, home office etc.

I recently sold my 300WM as well as my 243 and 6.5 and approached them again, this time adding the fact that I conducted safaris in South Africa where dangerous game would be on the menu and although this cut no ice, the fact that it was a double rifle that needed regulating to a particular round and the fact that I had sold three rifles and could reasonably justify the use of 375 on deer as per home office guidelines I was allowed the 375 for deer which obviously allowed the regular purchase of expanding ammo, not that I'll use it as such.

I genuinely think that a good few folk just want stuff for the sake of it and expect to have free reign with it. Don't get me wrong, my business requires people to have firearms, and I don't necessarily agree with some of the guidance but forces have to adhere to guidelines regardless of what we may think.

YMMV

HME

 

[Orion]

I'm not sure that's entirely the case regards HO requirements and I think you'd have a very hard time convincing a licensing dept that just because you had an open ticket (but closed in this situation) with a deer calibre on it, in this case a 300WM (which is way more than perhaps necessary), that you had satisfied them of your need for a 375 conditioned for deer.

Is that another way of saying the word that FEOs love to use when trying to downgrade an applicant's choice of calibre/cartridge - 'overkill'?

Anyhow, I don't exactly see it in the same way. deerstalker.308 had satisfied the requirements for initial good reason for possession of a .375 (overseas use on 'dangerous game'), and rightly been granted permission to possess. Thereafter any additional use in the UK could be justified, (providing quarry and land were available), by quoting the relevant section of the current HO Guide, (which if IIRC is a sensible improvement over the previous version), and asking for it to be implemented:

13.9 A certificate holder may shoot any quarry that is lawful (where they are authorised to shoot). Whilst guidance is provided, it is the responsibility of the shooter and the shooting community to know what calibre is suitable for which quarry, and when certain quarry is lawful (including the need to obtain or rely upon a licence from the relevant licensing authority to permit the shooting of protected species). Once initial “good reason” has been established for the possession of a firearm, there is no requirement for “good reason” to be demonstrated for additional quarry species or amendments providing the firearms are not underpowered for the species (see also paragraph 13.17). A cartridge should be capable of achieving a humane kill, and it is the responsibility of the shooter to ensure that any excess energy will be absorbed by the backstop. The “any other lawful quarry” condition (which also covers protected species that the certificate holder is licensed to shoot) should be applied. If an applicant is suitable to hold a firearm certificate and is deemed safe to do so, there is no requirement to restrict the quarry they shoot by the use of conditions.

End quote.

I think the above extract from the HO Guide also removes any argument against using a 'larger' calibre/cartridge on a 'minor' quarry simply because the applicant might have 'smaller' calibres already available.

The onus on which firearm might be suitable to use on what quarry appears to be finally shifting towards the discretion of the sporting firearms user, rather than being the responsibility of an office wallah who may not actually have any idea about sporting shooting - something that is long overdue. Maybe it's about time we should start getting more used to having responsibilty for our own actions rather than being restricted by unwarranted paperwork?

Would you not agree that the new improved Guide should help to remove some of these issues?

 

[scrumbag]

I'm with Orion, if you've got a 375, why can't you use it on deer? Certainly isn't unsuitable as quite a few plains game species are smaller than UK deer and given quite a few duikers are shot every year with 375 as part of plains game hunting. Suitable for them, why not by extension our smaller deer species?

 

[Orion]

Any deer species, (and AOLQ if you can afford the ammo!), there's no maximum limit on deer calibre/cartridge only minimums in an effort to prevent suffering.

It's about time that everyone woke up to the fact that if you are considered suitable to possess firearms of x, y or z calibre/cartridge/power, you are by extension responsible enough to make decisions on where to use them. The licensing system has been far too prescriptive for far too long and people have just got used to knuckling under to it.

 

[scrumbag]

Any deer species, (and AOLQ if you can afford the ammo!), there's no maximum limit on deer calibre/cartridge only minimums in an effort to prevent suffering.

It's about time that everyone woke up to the fact that if you are considered suitable to possess firearms of x, y or z calibre/cartridge/power, you are by extension responsible enough to make decisions on where to use them. The licensing system has been far too prescriptive for far too long and people have just got used to knuckling under to it.

Well said that man!

 

[Kalahari]

Just out of interest in my copy of "The Perfect Shot" they say you can go up to a 375 for a duiker, (somewhat smaller than a Roe) so go for AOLQ. You can quote the book if you like.

David.

 

[HME]

375? Pah! Tomorrow I'm applying for 338 lap mag and 50 cal, to heck with these measly 30 cals. When I'm questioned about my reasoning I'll just refer them to the forum! Home and dry!

 

[Kalahari]

Quite right, you have to really kill some of these rats and rabbits! Overkill, there is no such thing as over dead.

David.

 

[Seanpaul]

 

[Seanpaul]

What do you think chaps. I'll be honest I'm a little confused!

 

[deerstalker.308]

I would say your ticket is quite explicit, you have a closed licence for all your firearms, and the .375 cannot be fired in the UK, end of.
To be honest, I would say there is an order to be followed, personally I would be more keen to have my licence opened up for my day to day calibres before I worried about tackling the issues with the 375, I suspect you are a way off with this one, and you may have to be patient and follow the normal routes for having an open ticket.

 

[HunterMoore]

When you asked for a 375 presume you said you wanted it for shooting abroad ....... is that true or do you just want one?

that's not a problem but just asking.

I suggest you take it abroad and use it then look for an open certificate and then look to use it for deer.

just maybe go a little slower than trying for everything at once?

Tony

 

[Seanpaul]

Understood. I originally asked for the 375 as we have boar here and thought it would be an accepted caliber, didn't give shooting abroad as a reason... The cert arrived through the post giving me permission to acquire and shoot abroad but no permission to zero in the UK. I suppose my original question as per the thread was could I zero the rifle here in the UK and at a later date get the land I live on approved for said zeroing?

A permission for boar and AOLQ would be nice!

 

[deerstalker.308]

Sorry but I'm not getting this, when you apply for a calibre, you list your reasons for wanting it, so your reason for applying for the calibre would have been boar, you don't say what other calibres you have, but this all sounds odd, when I asked for a 375 it was under face to face discussion with my FEO, followed by written and verbal discussion with the head of that department. Since when do our firearms departments issue calibres for purposes they've declined you the use of....the logical way it would work is

"please mr FEO, can I have .375 for boar......"
"no, that is too much gun, you should go for something smaller, say .308 etc...."

Not

"please mr FEO, can I have a .375 for boar......"
"no, but here you go, have one anyway you can't use...."

sorry, it doesn't make sense.

as for the zeroing issue, the licence says it all. You cannot fire that gun in the uk. Simple.

 

[palmer_mike]

I guess, unless the feo got the wrong end of the stick and thought he meant driven boar abroad rather than boar shooting in the uk?

 

[Seanpaul]

Ok. I know i cannot fire it in the uk, it is of course made abundantly clear on the final condition, it seems others are saying that getting permission to zero in the uk should be fine... My intentions are pretty clear from the title of the thread but like anyone I want to know what the 'best case' scenario could be and weather it could be added as a UK usable gun in my cabinet!

The other larger rifle i have is a .300win mag with deer and AOLQ on. The 300 is enough gun for boar I know but having a 375 for shooting boar and larger deer species in the uk doesn't seem like an outrageous set of circumstances does it? I would like to take it abroad as much as possible

 

[8x57]

What do you think chaps. I'll be honest I'm a little confused!

I'm confused also. It's not very clear is it.
On the one hand they give permission for deer and AOLQ and then they contradict that by saying the .375 rifle cannot be shot in the U.K. I would suggest contacting your shooting organisation for their take on it. They aren't even using standard conditions as listed in the guidance document.

 

[Morgy]

I assume when you applied for the 375 H&H you asked for a variation in order to hunt abroad, in which case you got what you asked for.

If you wanted to use it here then you should have specified that it was for range work at an authorized club of which you are a member, stalking deer and boar here in the UK and for use abroad, then the certificate would grant permission for its use here in the UK and also enable you to purchase expanding ammo for it.