Humane Dispatch Pistol

[murrayb]

Having just completed a HAD course with Jelen (and very good it was too) a thought has occurred. How many people PRACTICE with their chosen HAD tool?

As part of Jelen's practical section we were asked to bring in various shotguns and firearms that can be used for HAD and fired them at targets to demonstrate the effect on shot patterns and bullet placements at the very short ranges normally dealt with in these circumstances. Two people had revolvers - one resulted in two perfect shots in the brain and one in what would have been a mess - demonstrating the need to practice.

The question is, how often do the owners of pistols for humane dispatch practice? Should I feel the need for one I would like to be able to practice in my local range on paper and know what's going to happen way before using it in anger as it were and that would need to be conditioned on the FAC.

And before the whole "should people be allowed to have a pistol blah blah blah" starts that's not the question.

 

[mereside]

That's the thing with pistol practice does jelen have authority to use sect 5 for practice, I ended up joining a club in IOM to use mine legally. would be good to clarify this as i was under the impression you could not use them for practice?, atb wayne

 

[willowbank]

Hi I have .38 S&W Special for humane dispatch and was advised by the Firearms Officer that it would not be advisable to use too many rounds as this could possibly be viewed as "playing at John Wayne" when reflecting, his advice was about right, there is no need to practice putting a bullet into an animal from the BASC best practice 25cm distance, allowing a little more I think to avoid a good set of antlers thrashing about.

Best thing to do IMO would be to fire a few rounds into a suitable object at the prescribed distance to see how the pistol reacts etc then put it away until you go stalking, never would I contemplate taking it to a range.

Having reread the OP I have used the pistol and not had any problems with "making a mess" through lack of practice.

ATB WB

 

[private fraser]

Reload and practice on your own land I would say.
A doddle to reload for.

 

[murrayb]

That's the thing with pistol practice does jelen have authority to use sect 5 for practice, I ended up joining a club in IOM to use mine legally. would be good to clarify this as i was under the impression you could not use them for practice?, atb wayne

Jelen didn't supply the pistols and only the people that were permissioned for them could even touch them. We looked just looked on as two shots were fired from close range by their respective owners.

 

[HunterMoore]

Having just completed a HAD course with Jelen (and very good it was too) a thought has occurred. How many people PRACTICE with their chosen HAD tool?

As part of Jelen's practical section we were asked to bring in various shotguns and firearms that can be used for HAD and fired them at targets to demonstrate the effect on shot patterns and bullet placements at the very short ranges normally dealt with in these circumstances. Two people had revolvers - one resulted in two perfect shots in the brain and one in what would have been a mess - demonstrating the need to practice.

The question is, how often do the owners of pistols for humane dispatch practice? Should I feel the need for one I would like to be able to practice in my local range on paper and know what's going to happen way before using it in anger as it were and that would need to be conditioned on the FAC.

And before the whole "should people be allowed to have a pistol blah blah blah" starts that's not the question.

Hi murrayb

glad you enjoyed the course ...... despite the heat!

I think the practical exercises demonstrated the need to practice with your chosen dispatch firearm (whatever it may be) at the distances and situations you are likely to encounter.

With regards Humane Dispatch Pistols it is important to comply with the conditions on your certificate. If you were granted authority I would expect the condition to refer to the use as restricted to "in connection with" the humane dispatch of animals. I do not believe "in connection with" has been tested in the courts but my belief is that this would include testing, regulating and appropriate practice to develop the necessary muscle memory to handle the firearm safely and competently.

Regular practice against deer shaped targets (particularly head shaped targets) at ranges from say 1 to 5 metres on a range should be perfectly acceptable ..... whereas shooting at 25 metres at bullseye targets might be tempting but potentially much tougher to justify.

Again shooting 50 rounds a time on the range may be considered excessive whilst a dozen rounds alongside your stalking or fox rifle at a suitable target at a suitable range may be perfectly acceptable.

I do not have any special insight into this and it is only my opinion and what I do and feel I could justify if I had to.

However you must remember that if you allow anyone else to handle your Humane Dispatch Pistol you will both be committing an offence and your pistol would become a section 5 prohibited weapon in the hands of anyone not directly authorised to possess it ...... this makes providing practical training quite problematical.

if there was sufficient demand I am sure Jelen would look to see what could be done legally to provide the training so it will be interesting to see how this thread develops.

Tony

 

[mereside]

Jelen didn't supply the pistols and only the people that were permissioned for them could even touch them. We looked just looked on as two shots were fired from close range by their respective owners.

I understand all that and wasn't trying to open a can of worms, I was told I could not practice so ended up just going over on the ferry no hassle and had some range time with training. I now use lead only bullets in 158 gr- 357 with 6 grains of unique a nice mild load and does the job really well and is accurate in my handgun. atb wayne

 

[8x57]

HunterMoore I agree with everything you say but just raise one small point.
There is normally a minimum distance that different firearms can be used on ranges for safety reasons. In the case of pistols or pistol calibre rifles it will normally be 10 metres and in the case of larger rifles it will normally be stated as 25 or 30metres on any range safety certificates (I can't remember which). This normally causes some problems with clubs that in the past have allowed certain police forces to use their ranges and the police will practise shooting from the hip with the non gun hand pushing against the target as in a close protection scenario.

I have heard of one course run for the benefit of the RSPCA some years ago where the candidates were shooting pistols into large logs that they had their one foot resting against. One candidate was in the process of shooting her foot when stopped by the rapid intervention of the guy conducting the exercise. He suggested that she spread her toes so that the bullet could pass between the toes but I understand that she declined and instead moved the whole foot to the side of the target.

 

[Bandit Country]

He suggested that she spread her toes so that the bullet could pass between the toes

Must have been a summer course and she was wearing sandals or possibly flip-flops?

 

[HunterMoore]

HunterMoore I agree with everything you say but just raise one small point.
There is normally a minimum distance that different firearms can be used on ranges for safety reasons. In the case of pistols or pistol calibre rifles it will normally be 10 metres and in the case of larger rifles it will normally be stated as 25 or 30metres on any range safety certificates (I can't remember which). This normally causes some problems with clubs that in the past have allowed certain police forces to use their ranges and the police will practise shooting from the hip with the non gun hand pushing against the target as in a close protection scenario.

I have heard of one course run for the benefit of the RSPCA some years ago where the candidates were shooting pistols into large logs that they had their one foot resting against. One candidate was in the process of shooting her foot when stopped by the rapid intervention of the guy conducting the exercise. He suggested that she spread her toes so that the bullet could pass between the toes but I understand that she declined and instead moved the whole foot to the side of the target.

Hi 8x57

you can tell I don't use that many ranges to have thought of that! So, depending upon the set up of the range and its safety regulations you may be thwarted from safe practice ....

The story is great .... and a tad scary .... well done the instructor!

Tony

 

[White Hart]

Don't bother with all the pistol shenanigans - not unless you want to get some leather chaps and do cowboy re-enactment stuff. Get a regular 410 shotgun, job done...

 

[8x57]

Must have been a summer course and she was wearing sandals or possibly flip-flops?

Bandit Country the way it was described to me was that the instructor said "can you do this with your toes" while holding out his hand and forming a wide V between his trigger and ring fingers to demonstrate. He then added " you will need to do that if you are to shoot the log without shooting your toes off". He was obviously ex-forces with a sense of humour like that.

"Don't bother with all the pistol shenanigans - not unless you want to get some leather chaps and do cowboy re-enactment stuff. Get a regular 410 shotgun, job done..."

White Hart I think you missed the last line of murrayb's opening thread. The debate is not about what you use but of the need for practise. Too many of these debates have degenerated in short order into a slanging match as to the pros and cons of various tools of dispatch. The most outspoken have often been those with a limited knowledge of the use of pistols or knives or whatever. I think murrayb actually made a very good point as too did mereside.

 

[White Hart]

White Hart I think you missed the last line of murrayb's opening thread. The debate is not about what you use but of the need for practise. Too many of these debates have degenerated in short order into a slanging match as to the pros and cons of various tools of dispatch. The most outspoken have often been those with a limited knowledge of the use of pistols or knives or whatever. I think murrayb actually made a very good point as too did mereside.[/QUOTE]

Fair play, I did notice the last line after I'd posted - engage brain / type... Having done one of the prior courses and getting the opportunity to use different "tools" on a quantity of deer heads it soon became apparent what the best tool was for all around use ie animal welfare and backstops etc. Also growing up on the family farm I also know what the go to tool was for putting down various animals.
As for practice I could see it being of importance as it's never going to be straight forward. It's good to know your way around the tool.

 

[Apache]

We have 2 .32 pistols in the practice. One is rifled, the other is not. I'd shoot a 5m target with the rifled pistol but not the other one. It's really a meter or less that I'd be happy. Both are ported barrels so you can place them against the skull safely.

When all I had on a FAC was pistols I still had the condition allowing 'zeroing' that allowed me to kill a cardboard box in front of a muckheap to get the feel of things.

The amount the majority of us will use pistols means they are a close range tool - 5m may be pushing things. (I do appreciate you can shoot accurately further, but it massively increases your risk of a cock up!)

 

[sikamalc]

Well many do not need such a weapon, but then again quite a few do. Especially if you are full time and also have a deer dog. I use a 357 Colt Lawman and have been glad of it a few times when taking clients on Sika Stags.

A wounded Sika stag in dense forestry is a challenge to deal with, and I have had a few hairy moments over the years. And I have had 2 try and take me out, and I don't mean for a curry or a pint either.

A 410 ................................................yeah right....................no way would that stop a gut shot Sika Stag.

 

[HunterMoore]

Hi Sikamalc

well it certainly works for you.

In fact there are probably many recreational stalkers whilst out on their own who would have a similar "good reason" to want/need a humane dispatch pistol .... still the OP's question is do you practice or are you naturally talented with a pistol?!!

 

[Mick@fen]

I was on the HAD course which I found informative and worthwhile. In the practical session I used my pistol (to what would have been good effect I think? I alone handle the pistol). As with any firearm practice is vital not only in the discharging of that weapon but also muzzle awareness, it is far easier to muzzle sweep with this kind of firearm than any other so handling does need practice! Pistols do have there place and can be used is a more discrete manor in certain circumstances? I have brought practice up with my local FEO who agreed that some practice is necessary but suggested that it be done on private land not at the range.

 

[8x57]

Conducting the practise on private land could possibly remove many of the potential issues with regard to insurance that you could have on a range.

 

[sikamalc]

Hi Sikamalc

well it certainly works for you.

In fact there are probably many recreational stalkers whilst out on their own who would have a similar "good reason" to want/need a humane dispatch pistol .... still the OP's question is do you practice or are you naturally talented with a pistol?!!

I have limited practice with the revolver I own, and whilst on my lease in Scotland I usually fire a couple of practice shots. Hitting a target in the right place with any handgun is not as easy as one would think and with most wounded deer one needs to be fairly close to be able to dispatch the beast cleanly. However different situations occur with wounded deer, and I am not referring to RTA's, of which I have limited experience. I refer mostly to wounded beasts that a client has clipped or wounded. Much depends on the species and terrain, and my first concern when I am hunting a wounded Sika Stag or Red Stag is my dog, although Todd is now over 8 years old and has had a great deal of experience.

I usually shoot 38 specials instead of 357 magnum rounds, and always try for a head shot where the neck joins the head, or heart. But that is not always easy if the beast is laying down. Its up to the stalker and their experience what decision to take, but one must always make sure of the backstop even with a handgun.

As for using a shotgun in such situations, well to me it is ridiculous. If you are taking clients out in areas where you are stalking Sika and Red deer you are not going to tote a shotgun around with you all day!

One other comment I would make, and that is all deer are individuals and when the adrenalin is high along with testosterone on stags you never know what they will do. Some will give in easily, others do not!




Last year with a badly shot Sika stag that had broken both antlers off and just had brow tines. Todd bayed it in a deep burn, where it was cleanly dispatched. It had run about 150yds and then dropped into the burn which is about 60ft down and stood in an eddy with the dog baying it. This was in 2012 and it was a Finnish client.

 

[mereside]

Mick I really wasn't questioning others handling of the handgun at all but the use of them to demonstrate on a dead beast. I was told catogorically that i couldn't use it to practice abit like chicken and the egg scenario. so as daft as it sounds hopped onto a ferry to practice where my fac was not in jeopardy, one thing that did help me was dry firing along with proper grip pressure, also the benifit of home loading and using a mild load helps, ps I would also say using an all lead cast round is superb and agree with everything malc has said, atb wayne