The people's republic of Scotland

[wivenhoe65]

I'd rather be a Scottish fool. Than a Scottish servant , So much bitterness on show here.

Where do you get bitter from ? bemused yes , bitter most certainly not.
I just cannot understand why so many people will blindly follow such an obvious con artist , there are just so many unanswered questions that it is beyond my comprehension why anyone would be following Salmond ,just one example , where is the sense in wanting to be out of one union but be so desperate to retain another - UK / EU ?
And i will be surprised if i get a coherent answer or any answer at all - seeing as prompting someone of the yes persuasion to answer a question seems to invoke some sort of mental blanking

 

[Scots_stalker]

Where do you get bitter from ? bemused yes , bitter most certainly not.
I just cannot understand why so many people will blindly follow such an obvious con artist , there are just so many unanswered questions that it is beyond my comprehension why anyone would be following Salmond ,just one example , where is the sense in wanting to be out of one union but be so desperate to retain another - UK / EU ?
And i will be surprised if i get a coherent answer or any answer at all - seeing as prompting someone of the yes persuasion to answer a question seems to invoke some sort of mental blanking

What part of "it's not a vote for salmond or the SNP" don't you quite grasp ???

 

[wivenhoe65]

Your compatriots appear to be voting yes based on the promises of a party led by Salmond , a party they voted in to power in the first place , so you are trying to say that the sheep will stop believing the lies (before they fail to be achieved )and vote (after independence ) for someone / something else ? If so who ? and where are they now ?

 

[Scots_stalker]

Look unless you actually live in Scotland only then can you begin to understand the true feelings up here. Not what the media dishes out to suit.




It is fair to say that Salmond is not particularly well liked but people forget that is not a vote for him or the SNP it is a vote for Independence and to rid ourselves of Westminster making decisions on us.


Here is some food for thought.


Scotland is normally Labour controlled (never Tory) but half the time it is a Tory party that is in power so we as a country don't get the party we voted for.
Because we don't vote for Tory, they have very few seats to lose in Scotland and are quite happy to shovel all the dung up here without fear of reprisals. (proven time and time again)


Labour on the otherhand do get a significant number of seats that without them would struggle to get a majority to govern the UK and for that reason don't want an independent Scotland.


Independence for Scotland would mean a likelyhood of a Tory or Tory coalition for many many years


So there are different agendas for wanting the "Union" to remain


Another thing us Scots are fed up hearing is how we get more than our share from the coffers. It has ben proven time and again that we as a nation put in more than we get out


The strange thing is how all of a sudden Scotland is being promised all sorts of new powers if we vote No. That tells you that if we were such a burden, then why are we having the proverbial carrot dangled ?


I have heard these promises before that don't materialise and i am fed up of Scotland being the guinea pig for the Tories.


I have no doubt Scotland will do just fine on our own. Not so sure the rest of the UK will




If we find it tough, we will just invent a solution. After all, us Scots invented just about everything else

 

[wivenhoe65]

What part of "it's not a vote for salmond or the SNP" don't you quite grasp ???

Your compatriots appear to be voting yes based on the promises of a party led by Salmond , a party they voted in to power in the first place , so you are trying to say that the sheep will stop believing the lies (before they fail to be achieved )and vote (after independence ) for someone / something else ? If so who ? and where are they now ?

 

[LuckyEddie]

Your compatriots appear to be voting yes based on the promises of a party led by Salmond , a party they voted in to power in the first place , so you are trying to say that the sheep will stop believing the lies (before they fail to be achieved )and vote (after independence ) for someone / something else ? If so who ? and where are they now ?

I'm not, the SNP has made a hash of my daughters' education and it looks like it'll be some sort of licence for air rifles which I shoot with.
So I am going to do my utmost to get rid of the SNP after independence.
If however the No win then it will be almost impossible to get rid of the SNP in the foreseeable future - which inspires me as much as the thought of BoBo the clown of London leading the country as PM!

 

[bogtrotter]

Your compatriots appear to be voting yes based on the promises of a party led by Salmond , a party they voted in to power in the first place , so you are trying to say that the sheep will stop believing the lies (before they fail to be achieved )and vote (after independence ) for someone / something else ? If so who ? and where are they now ?

If there is a yes vote we will have a general election, where you will have all the same choices that you have at the moment

Tory, Labour Libs, Greens, and God knows how many others no doubt some new parties even the SNP will be trying to get our votes , but they will just be one of the choices, what is different is that who ever wins will be a party of the Scottish peoples choice sitting in a Scottish parliament dealing with Scottish affairs.

Cant understand why so many think its all about Salmond.

 

[wivenhoe65]

I'm not, the SNP has made a hash of my daughters' education and it looks like it'll be some sort of licence for air rifles which I shoot with.
So I am going to do my utmost to get rid of the SNP after independence.
If however the No win then it will be almost impossible to get rid of the SNP in the foreseeable future - which inspires me as much as the thought of BoBo the clown of London leading the country as PM!

Well at least i can understand that , but a bit like cutting your foot off because your toenails are too long

 

[bogtrotter]

Your compatriots appear to be voting yes based on the promises of a party led by Salmond , a party they voted in to power in the first place , so you are trying to say that the sheep will stop believing the lies (before they fail to be achieved )and vote (after independence ) for someone / something else ? If so who ? and where are they now ?

SNP may be the party in power after a general election , but its just as likely maybe even more likely to be Labour , while labour as a party are behind the no campaign, a huge proportion of the yes campaign is made up of grass roots labour supporters.

 

[murrayb]

a Scottish parliament dealing with Scottish affairs.

Don't you have one of those already?

 

[LuckyEddie]

Well at least i can understand that , but a bit like cutting your foot off because your toenails are too long

Na more like a thorn under the skin.
Leave things the way they are will only lead to more agony!

 

[LuckyEddie]

Don't you have one of those already?

Not really - not fully autonomous or is that what the English can't comprehend?

 

[bogtrotter]

Don't you have one of those already?

Yes but with very limited powers, the people have had a taste of it now they want the lot.

 

[wivenhoe65]

SNP may be the party in power after a general election , but its just as likely maybe even more likely to be Labour , while labour as a party are behind the no campaign, a huge proportion of the yes campaign is made up of grass roots labour supporters.

OK ,accept the theory , but Scotland's recent history of following a socialist agenda could be seen as being a significant part of the issues of a relatively stagant economy apparently suffering from not enough entrepreneurial get up and go and lacking innovation(and i know that there are entrepreneurs / innovation but the economic situation speaks for itself ), so where will be the significant change that's worth taking the risks associated with dissolving the union ?
I say this from the life long position of a floating voter (well at least between Lab / Con ) - not a member of either tribe.
But i can see big problems with one single party or political colour being in charge without check for a long time .
My opinion , for what its worth (which is not a lot ) is that Scotland's biggest problem is having followed one political flavour for too long - with no checks and balances that a change in flavour produces.

 

[private fraser]

And so it goes :


http://news.google.co.uk/news/url?s...n&did=-4371029542258881342&sid=en_uk-b&ssid=b


http://news.google.co.uk/news/url?s...n&did=-4513609029479586929&sid=en_uk-b&ssid=b


http://news.google.co.uk/news/url?s...RD&bvm=section&did=1703670097743577993&ssid=h


http://news.google.co.uk/news/url?s...ion&did=-8713905939147253359&ssid=h&gcnid=826

http://news.google.co.uk/news/url?s...7709065083286053&sid=en_uk-b&ssid=b&gcnid=826




I doubt that the Nationalists give a fig.





Steve.

Looks like you were right.
None so blind etc

 

[private fraser]

They have to have it in smaller chunks, like this taken from the last link....

"If part of the territory of a member state would cease to be part of that state because it were to become a new independent state, the (EU) treaties would no longer apply to that territory," Barroso said, meaning an independent Scotland would no longer be part of the EU.
He pointed out however that any European state which met the EU's membership criteria may apply to join the EU."



I've been saying for some time that it's a case of....out...negotiate...pass the test...reaply..re-admitted.....Hello Euro.

Damn, there I've gone and "preached" again.

Anyone from the Yes side care to comment on the above.?
I am honestly trying to see what you think is going to happen re Yes...then what?

Pse have a look at Notsharps links above....comments welcome.
It's a debate not a slanging match... hopefully.

 

[User00035]

Look unless you actually live in Scotland only then can you begin to understand the true feelings up here. Not what the media dishes out to suit.
It is fair to say that Salmond is not particularly well liked but people forget that is not a vote for him or the SNP it is a vote for Independence and to rid ourselves of Westminster making decisions on us.
Here is some food for thought.
Scotland is normally Labour controlled (never Tory) but half the time it is a Tory party that is in power so we as a country don't get the party we voted for.
Because we don't vote for Tory, they have very few seats to lose in Scotland and are quite happy to shovel all the dung up here without fear of reprisals. (proven time and time again)
Labour on the otherhand do get a significant number of seats that without them would struggle to get a majority to govern the UK and for that reason don't want an independent Scotland.
Independence for Scotland would mean a likelyhood of a Tory or Tory coalition for many many years
So there are different agendas for wanting the "Union" to remain
Another thing us Scots are fed up hearing is how we get more than our share from the coffers. It has ben proven time and again that we as a nation put in more than we get out.
The strange thing is how all of a sudden Scotland is being promised all sorts of new powers if we vote No. That tells you that if we were such a burden, then why are we having the proverbial carrot dangled ?
I have heard these promises before that don't materialise and i am fed up of Scotland being the guinea pig for the Tories.
I have no doubt Scotland will do just fine on our own. Not so sure the rest of the UK will
If we find it tough, we will just invent a solution. After all, us Scots invented just about everything else

Now who's bitter?
Its probably pointless but I'll repeat it for the sake of form: Scotland is over-represented in Westminster. You do not have rule imposed upon you from London. In fact the situation is quite the reverse. Scottish MPs may vote on matters which concern only English voters but not vice versa. And Scotland has its own Parliament. The democratic deficit is tipped in completely the opposite direction to the one you suppose, yet I have never heard a single English person complain of living under Scottish political oppression. You may not have voted for a conservative Government but I didn't vote for a coalition and I didn't vote for 13 years of Labour. In my constituency we have never voted for a Labour MP yet we must live under Labour governments. Scotland is no different because while part of the UK it is not and has never been a separate state. You are a region within a single nation. You do not get to choose which part of the national democratic process will apply to you. If you wish to change that state of affairs in your referendum by all means do so but spare us the colonial martyrdom act because it is factually nonsensical.
You ask why the devo-max carrot is being dangled but you have answered your own question. The Labour party is desperate to retain its grip on Westminster politics which is why at the eleventh hour they have wheeled out the cyclopean sociopath from Kirkcaldy to plead on their behalf. Their behalf remember, not ours. Mr Cameron is wheedling and whimpering because, ostensibly, he doesn't want to be the PM who "lost" the Union, as if it were his to lose. In reality he doesn't want to lose the Tory leadership and the ensuing general election.
I find their blandishments as distasteful as you do. More so, in fact since as a subject of the Union they make them in my name but without my consultation or approval.
Just get on with it will you and make that Yes vote win.

 

[rick6point5]

Now that is a fair point, nice one...Scots stalker,

'If we find it tough, we will just invent a solution. After all, us Scots invented just about everything else'

However it does remind me of the Monty Python 'what did the Romans do for us' sketch....just about everything..

 

[tackb]

Now who's bitter?
Its probably pointless but I'll repeat it for the sake of form: Scotland is over-represented in Westminster. You do not have rule imposed upon you from London. In fact the situation is quite the reverse. Scottish MPs may vote on matters which concern only English voters but not vice versa. And Scotland has its own Parliament. The democratic deficit is tipped in completely the opposite direction to the one you suppose, yet I have never heard a single English person complain of living under Scottish political oppression. You may not have voted for a conservative Government but I didn't vote for a coalition and I didn't vote for 13 years of Labour. In my constituency we have never voted for a Labour MP yet we must live under Labour governments. Scotland is no different because while part of the UK it is not and has never been a separate state. You are a region within a single nation. You do not get to choose which part of the national democratic process will apply to you. If you wish to change that state of affairs in your referendum by all means do so but spare us the colonial martyrdom act because it is factually nonsensical.
You ask why the devo-max carrot is being dangled but you have answered your own question. The Labour party is desperate to retain its grip on Westminster politics which is why at the eleventh hour they have wheeled out the cyclopean sociopath from Kirkcaldy to plead on their behalf. Their behalf remember, not ours. Mr Cameron is wheedling and whimpering because, ostensibly, he doesn't want to be the PM who "lost" the Union, as if it were his to lose. In reality he doesn't want to lose the Tory leadership and the ensuing general election.
I find their blandishments as distasteful as you do. More so, in fact since as a subject of the Union they make them in my name but without my consultation or approval.
Just get on with it will you and make that Yes vote win.

altogether far too many facts for this to belong in this thread !

 

[Laurie]

If we find it tough, we will just invent a solution. After all, us Scots invented just about everything else [scots-stalker]

HMMmm ... you or somebody else said that in a previous post too. Really?

Look at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_inventions_and_discoveries

then:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_inventions_and_discoveries


Just a wee bit smaller.

The foundations of our (and everybody else's too) physics, astronomy and science is Sir Isaac Newton, and Englishman. Michael Farady, the key man in the development of electricity. The steam engine and railways that allowed the industrial revolution and transformed transport links all originate south of the border. Englishman Charles Babbage is often called 'the father of the computer' (mechanical), but Alan Turing of Cambridge is recognised as devising and building the first modern electronic computer, a key tool in the WW2 Bletchley Park codebreaking operation. Hans Joachim Pabst von Ohain (German) and Sir Frank Whittle (English) both invented viable jet engines separately and nearly simultaneously unaware of each other's work; the world's first commercial jet airliner was developed by De Havilland and a team led by Ronald Bishop an Englishman who'd previously developed the De Havilland Mosquito in WW2. Another key engineer was Roy Chadwick (English) - the Avro Lancaster, prelimianry design of the Vulcan V-bomber...

Name a major field or invention in our everyday life with a Scots inventor or design team. Oh, of course rockets and space travel. I'd nearly overlooked Werner Von Broon, the well known rocketeer.

I'm a Scot, brought up in Scotland. When I was a boy, we were always told of how Scots engineers had worked around the world, likewise Scots doctors and vets, and empire administrators ... sojers too. But talking absolute rubbish about how almost EVERYTHING was invented by Scots. You think that does you or your argument any favours.

As for the you don't vote Tory but get them half the time. I could hardly believe my eyes and like Finch was gobsmacked to use a good Yorkie expression. Anybody who votes Tory gets Labour half the time. So, your idea is to get whoever you vote for ALL the time? You want to emigrate to North Korea my friend - that's the kind of 'democracy' they believe in there too.