Barnes? (Or Non Lead Bullet Heads)

[Sam]

Hullo All,


I read the article about a possible ban on Lead bullet heads in Shooting Times today. So I started thinking about alternatives. Im under the Impression the The Barnes X jobbie is leadless, is this right? If it is what sort of money are they for 6mm/6.5/.30 heads as Ive never seen them for sale before. Also how effective are they?

I also have in my head that Brenneke make alternative bullets, do they or is it a figure of my imagination?


Thanks

Sam

 

[Huntingstella]

We have been looking at this for a little while, we found that the barnes copper fowl the barrel badly so we have been testing the hornaby GMX with gliding metal, it as not fowled as badly as the Barnes, still more testing to do, hopefuly we will use them on the reds later this year.

Has anyone esle been using the GMX on Roe if so what are your thoughts on the bullets expanding as they go through, if at all.

Gary

 

[Frax]

I'm going to have to go down this route too very soon due the amount of eagles we have...last thing we need is them keeling over with lead poisoning. They have done some very interesting work on lead in condors and ravens in California.
http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/article.php?art_id=5671

Don't really understand why a copper jacketed bullet would foul a barrel any less than a solid copper bullet - I'm sure someone here knows.

As for price, Midway are listing them at around £32 per 50 for Barnes TSX in 6.5

Does anyone know a load for 6.5 Swede using H4831? (don't really want to buy another powder until this one runs out!)

 

[flytie]

Njc on this site has been using them, with great effect seemingly! Midway sell them;

http://www.midwayuk.com/apps/ebrows...nd=Barnes&categoryid=7279&categorystring=9315 *** 652 *** 19785 *** 9016 ***

ft

 

[Selous]

Hi
I must admit I havent had problems with the Barnes TSX causing copper fouling problems but they do work really well. No excessive meat damage, kill things well and can be very accurate (0.5moa or less sometimes). I would suggest dropping a bullet weight compared to lead and try to push them relatively fast. I have used them with success in 22/250, 308 win and 7mm RM

S

 

[Sam]

Njc on this site has been using them, with great effect seemingly! Midway sell them;

http://www.midwayuk.com/apps/ebrows...nd=Barnes&categoryid=7279&categorystring=9315 *** 652 *** 19785 *** 9016 ***

ft

How do you purchase from the flytie? it seems you order them on the web, which is illegal


Sam

 

[Muir]

I'm going to have to go down this route too very soon due the amount of eagles we have...last thing we need is them keeling over with lead poisoning. They have done some very interesting work on lead in condors and ravens in California.
http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/article.php?art_id=5671

Don't really understand why a copper jacketed bullet would foul a barrel any less than a solid copper bullet - I'm sure someone here knows.

As for price, Midway are listing them at around £32 per 50 for Barnes TSX in 6.5

Does anyone know a load for 6.5 Swede using H4831? (don't really want to buy another powder until this one runs out!)

Don't buy into this lead VS wild life line. It's much along the liunes of Global Warming: limited studied aimed at proving a point. Notice the study didn't say what was a damaging level of lead for ravens? Nor did it say how they selected the ravens for the study. Maybe this paragraph will explain the reason for this publicized, very limited study:

"This past hunting season, researchers weren’t able to secure funding until the season started and therefore got a late start with the distribution of copper ammunition, said Derek Craighead, executive director and chairman of the board of Craighead Beringia South."

The next line says they are hoping for a wider study (read: more money) next year... at which point their data will be subject of for peer review.

I live in Montana. We have more raptors than you can shake a stick at including the highly protected Bald Eagle. The State has found no harm in lead cored bullets and has no plans on banning them. Unlike California which banned them on the basis of thin research. Even .22's are illegal. Lend these laws no willing favor or you poor fellows will find your shooting rights again impinged. Fair warning from an ex-California resident.~Muir

PS: Fill the case to the base of the bullet with 4831! Try www.hodgdon.com for the exact load. My 6.5's like it.

 

[cush]

I'm going to have to go down this route too very soon due the amount of eagles we have...last thing we need is them keeling over with lead poisoning. They have done some very interesting work on lead in condors and ravens in California.
http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/article.php?art_id=5671

Don't really understand why a copper jacketed bullet would foul a barrel any less than a solid copper bullet - I'm sure someone here knows.

As for price, Midway are listing them at around £32 per 50 for Barnes TSX in 6.5

Does anyone know a load for 6.5 Swede using H4831? (don't really want to buy another powder until this one runs out!)

the rspb have got a short memory it was not that long ago that they removed a perfectly healthy golden eagle which was due to be released back to the wild after a long injury,it was returned to its falconer who saved its life a couple of weeks later only for it to die a week later,after tests had been done on the bird results had been high levels of lead in its body it had been given shot rabbits ,judge for yourself http://www.fieldsportschannel.tv/yoursport/progarchive/index.html21st october 2009

 

[flytie]

How do you purchase from the flytie? it seems you order them on the web, which is illegal
Sam

Sam, you need to have them sent to an RFD near you. If you go round your local RFD's and ask nicely, offer to pay the postage, and perhaps make a token purchase, they might just play ball with you. I am fortunate as a mate of mine is an RFD and he only lives 10 minutes up the road.

Sometimes rifle clubs or reloading clubs have orders with them and you can tack yours on to theirs.

ft

 

[Muir]

the rspb have got a short memory it was not that long ago that they removed a perfectly healthy golden eagle which was due to be released back to the wild after a long injury,it was returned to its falconer who saved its life a couple of weeks later only for it to die a week later,after tests had been done on the bird results had been high levels of lead in its body it had been given shot rabbits ,judge for yourself http://www.fieldsportschannel.tv/yoursport/progarchive/index.html21st october 2009

I watched segments of the program but must have skipped over, or not found, the leadened eagle segment. You say they fed the bird lead shot via shot rabbits? Is that a reasonable basis for banning lead? Sounds like how our Food and Drug Administration banned sassafras root here: they fed concentrated amounts the main ingredient to lab rats -far more than a human would ever get in a life time, and found the rats had a tendancy towards cancer. So they banned it. The fact that people had been using it for hundreds of years with no ill effect had no bearing on the matter.~Muir

 

[finnbear270]

The usual thing, paper qualified T*ts, holding sway over real life, real time events seen & experienced by people out in the field.

 

[cush]

I watched segments of the program but must have skipped over, or not found, the leadened eagle segment. You say they fed the bird lead shot via shot rabbits? Is that a reasonable basis for banning lead? Sounds like how our Food and Drug Administration banned sassafras root here: they fed concentrated amounts the main ingredient to lab rats -far more than a human would ever get in a life time, and found the rats had a tendancy towards cancer. So they banned it. The fact that people had been using it for hundreds of years with no ill effect had no bearing on the matter.~Muir

it was on the 21st october 2009 clip

 

[njc110381]

I haven't found the Barnes foul my barrel too badly. I use 130grn through my 6.5 and rarely clean the rifle. It just keeps on shooting into sub inch groups at 100 yards with a thrown together home load which I'm sure could be improved if I worked on it.

Expansion wise they don't make that much mess, yet the things I've hit just seem to slump. They open up quickly but don't lose any material so the surrounding tissue doesn't seem that knocked about?

I order mine from my RFD. They cost a little more than Midway prices generally but when you think what you get out of a bullet if you only stalk with them (say a carcass per 4 shots allowing for range time and load development) then it's not all that bad. Personally I think they're great.

 

[flytie]

I haven't found the Barnes foul my barrel too badly. I use 130grn through my 6.5 and rarely clean the rifle. It just keeps on shooting into sub inch groups at 100 yards with a thrown together home load which I'm sure could be improved if I worked on it.

Expansion wise they don't make that much mess, yet the things I've hit just seem to slump. They open up quickly but don't lose any material so the surrounding tissue doesn't seem that knocked about?

I order mine from my RFD. They cost a little more than Midway prices generally but when you think what you get out of a bullet if you only stalk with them (say a carcass per 4 shots allowing for range time and load development) then it's not all that bad. Personally I think they're great.

Njc, what you write is rather reassuring after reading some of the dire warnings being bandied about. I for one will give them a try when I run short of SST's.

A lot of people are forgetting the lead shot ban that we had enforced on wetlands shooting a few years ago. I, for one, was vociferous in decrying the stance taken by BASC in this matter. I have copies of the studies that English Nature produced to force the issue. They were sent to me by Dr John Harradine of BASC who was very helpful in this matter. He did not give me a copy of the study done on Lindisfarne, which showed no noticeable levels of ingested lead in all the shot wild duck in the study, bar one.

This rather incensed me, and I persued the BASC on the matter, finally getting a full response via a conversation with my MP. I had not realised the Governmental pressure that the BASC were put under. What they finally achieved, the partial ban, was the least worst option they were offered.

I am afraid that if the Government want to play the "safety" card, we have little to defend in using lead. It is highly poisonous and inherently toxic. They banned it in pencils, they banned it in paint, they banned it in water pipes, fishing weights and in shot for shooting wildfowl.

I do not think that they are right, I know of no-one who has ever had lead poisoning from ingesting shot! But I cannot deny that lead is inherently poisonous. There are alternatives and I think we will have to get used to using them.

ft

 

[Ronin]

I'm using Barnes TSX 130's in my 6.5x284, they are returning sub half MOA accuracy, they do not damage any more or less than any other bullet placed in right location.

Ive found that they have a tendancy to pass through - even on big animals (reds) at UK stalking distances, however this hasnt been an issue, all shots so far have dropped either straight away or within 40 mtrs.

I havent experienced more fouling, but I am using an aftermarket barrel.

Cost, yes they do cost more, but they work, reliably.

They are worth it.

 

[Muir]

I do not think that they are right....There are alternatives and I think we will have to get used to using them.

ft

Oh man. That's a sad statement.~Muir

 

[Rolf]

This input will sound like a commercial for Barnes Bullets but I love them and apart from when I load for vermins they are the only game bullet I use these days.
About barrel fouling, used to be a problem when the first ones was around, Barnes X, but since the TSX and TTSX with the driving bands came it hasn`t been a problem. If your barrel still fouls with the new ones I believe it says more about the barrel itself then the bullet.
I load them in 222rem, 6x47 Lapua, 6,5x55, 7-08rem, and soon in 308NM & 358NM. Velocity is from app. 750 mps up to 1 000mps. Feets, yards and all the others isn`t my thing.
And they work equally well in all of them. Great accuracy, very little meat damage and they really pack a punch.
My last game was a big cow moose, caliber was the lovely little 7-08. 150 grain TSX through both lungs and exit. She ran app. 50 meters and just fell over. What more can one ask for??
There are a couple of others out there, Nosler E-Tip, Lapua Naturalis, equally good but over here they are three times more expensive. Hornady has already been mentioned and I`ve for sure forgotten a couple of others.
Like I said, one big commercial ad but give them a try I think you`ll like them.
//Rolf

 

[sean]

I have used E tips in my 300wsm they seem to be o.k.As for lead being dangerous yes it is.But how many deer for how many years have been shot with lead based bullets how many poeple do you know it has killed?As for eagles and other birds of prey suffering from lead poisioning i'm sure they pick up more pheasants and pigeons ect that have been shot with lead shot and the ******* things are everywhere.It looks like the shooting community yet again are going to be shafted by the powers that be.And yet again we roll over on our backs and let them.It's time to wake up and smell the coffee boy's this is death by a thousand cuts.20 years ago if you had asked pistol shooters would pistols ever be banned they would have laughed THERE BANNED.If you asked fox hunters 10 years ago if fox hunting would ever be banned they would of laughed IT'S BANNED. I know i have gone of course abit but for f***k sake guys we need to stand up against these things and find out what our so called shooting organisations are doing to prevent things like lead bullets being banned,Very little as usual i expect.
Rant over
LOVE SEAN

 

[flytie]

. I know i have gone of course abit but for f***k sake guys we need to stand up against these things and find out what our so called shooting organisations are doing to prevent things like lead bullets being banned,Very little as usual i expect.
Rant over
LOVE SEAN

Sean, are you a member of BASC or any other shooting organisation? If so, have you let them know how you feel? I did over the lead shot ban. Ask them how many members complained or lobbied them about the them proposed lead ban. There weren't many of us. See how much support you can get together to fight the government on this, I will be with you. But I can guarantee there will not be many others, judging by past performance.

I entered into a lengthy and interesting conversation with Dr John Harradine and even managed to get a response from English Nature. Unfortunately how do you justify using a noxious, toxic and highly poisonous metal, lead, when there are alternatives. I am afraid I had no answer to them then, and I still do not. Even though i have never seen or heard of anyone, in my 50 years, who suffered through ingested lead poisoning from shooting, you cannot argue about the fact that lead is poisonous.

The daft thing is the government will ban something, like that newish drug Methadrone (I think). They are going to ban it because it has showed up as being a contributor to the death of 7 people in England and showed up in 27 autopsies in Scotland. No proof that it has killed people on it's own! None!! But still they are going to ban it. The fact that motor vehicles kill over 4000 people a year, surely means that they would ban them. Nope. It will never happen. Welcome to the selective parliament that we vote in.

Being as there is going to be an election soon, try your prospective MP's to see what they say about the use of lead, either in shot or bullets. I think you will find that they say the same as mine did, "I would be much happier if a non toxic substance was used so no lead can enter the food chain". You can shout, rant, pout and throw your toys out of the pram as much as you like, I do not think the shooting organisations will have much say in the matter. Again! The Government, of whatever colour, will point to their being a viable alernative which can, therefore should, be used.

Man the barracades and fill the petrol bombs

ft