Low velocity bullet advice

[NigelM]

Lee,

All the research on the Barnes says they don't expand below 2200 fps and are at their best over 2600 fps. That's why you load down by 20/30 grains on Barnes and go for max velocity from your rifle. Don't see why you would want to run a non expanding projectile when it's easy to run a simple cup and core which will expand at those velocities.

I suppose you could run a 130 grain TSX and stoke it up to 2700 fps.

I stand to be corrected, but at the moment it doesn't make sense to me. Why would you want to? What are the benefits?

 

[xavierdoc]

It would possibly have a bit too much whack for a PB HD shot.

Yes, but for a shot this close ("Point Blank" can mean different things, I'm assuming you're using the layman's term suggesting "a few yards") you could carry a specific load for that job alone. Having your scope zero'd for your stalking load wouldn't matter (allowing for height-above-bore parallax for HD shot as usual).

This "HD load" could even be subsonic if only used for HD, I believe. I once worked up a 180gr RN subsonic HD load using trail boss, which I have tested as safe through my mod (doesn't yaw) but ricochet was a real concern with this heavily constructed SP bullet. I'd feel happier with a faster, lighter, more fragile bullet that would disintegrate in the animal.

Not simple is it?

Nope. I'm sure we've all tried to design a rifle that fulfils more than one role well. Always going to be compromises.

 

[caorach]

It would be a true 200 yd deer stalking rifle as well as a tracking rifle.

To my way of thinking that seems to make more sense as you could "specialize" this rifle so much that it would be no good to anyone and I'd bet you wouldn't be long in getting fed up with it yourself.

Leave it a bit more multipurpose and it will be a lot easier to live with and have a lot more use plus you are more likely to have it with you when you actually need it if you are using it all the time and not just for tracking.

 

[mereside]

I think caorach is right about being no good to anyone else by turning it into something only you could use or limited people, I thought long and hard of what i needed and went down the road of a short under lever tailored my load to suit my use but it is still standard and can still use factory or full load reloads. If you need it to multi task I would do as suggested and give yourself room for multipurpose, good luck and let us know how you get on, atb wayne

 

[NigelM]

Yes, but for a shot this close ("Point Blank" can mean different things, I'm assuming you're using the layman's term suggesting "a few yards") you could carry a specific load for that job alone. Having your scope zero'd for your stalking load wouldn't matter (allowing for height-above-bore parallax for HD shot as usual).

This "HD load" could even be subsonic if only used for HD, I believe. I once worked up a 180gr RN subsonic HD load using trail boss, which I have tested as safe through my mod (doesn't yaw) but ricochet was a real concern with this heavily constructed SP bullet. I'd feel happier with a faster, lighter, more fragile bullet that would disintegrate in the animal.



Nope. I'm sure we've all tried to design a rifle that fulfils more than one role well. Always going to be compromises.

I suppose a 110 V Max would be the best option for close range HD and significantly reduce the chance of ricochet. Should be fine for head, neck and chest. Then have a 180 PT load for the longer range work (up to 150 yds).

 

[xavierdoc]

What a flat meaplat does is "shoulder stabilizes" the bullet in flesh.

Agreed, but that isn't the only effect of a flat meplat. For a non-expanding projectile, a flat meplat produces a larger diameter wound channel than a spire-point. Normally irrelevant in a "small-bore" like .30cal hunting deer in UK but if your expanding spire-point is going too slowly to expand it might become relevant with cast bullet choice.

 

[xavierdoc]

Sounds like Mereside and I are fellow underlever fans!

Shame they don't lend themselves to moderator-fitment (though I think Baldie Dave at Valkyrie Rifles has done just that for someone.)

Wayne- are you casting your own? If so, any idea of your Brinell hardness and alloy make-up? How is the expansion at 30-30 speeds? Thanks.

 

[mereside]

nnnnnnnnnnnnnnooooooooooooooooooooooooooo don't do it leave it nice, loud and proud lol, after tracking last weekend I went away with 5 lever fans all wanting one so canny be all bad.
sorry i have just re read your post just getting over your mod comment lol, I have not cast my own yet with the 30-30 but I will be doing, I am using 173 grain bullets from the shell house company at the minute, these are working really well I need to get a mold sourced for it to crack on, my dad has been sourcing me lead so its down to me to get my finger out with the 30-30,atb wayne

 

[User00014]

Lee,

All the research on the Barnes says they don't expand below 2200 fps and are at their best over 2600 fps. That's why you load down by 20/30 grains on Barnes and go for max velocity from your rifle. Don't see why you would want to run a non expanding projectile when it's easy to run a simple cup and core which will expand at those velocities.

I suppose you could run a 130 grain TSX and stoke it up to 2700 fps.

I stand to be corrected, but at the moment it doesn't make sense to me. Why would you want to? What are the benefits?

I have also done my research in great detail Nigel, but also my rifle like Wayne's is for a specific job , it is purely to be used for a tracking rifle , nothing else and also there is a reason for me using Barnes bullets , it's because they don't break up , they stay in one lump.

If I ever have to shoot over my dog , with a Barnes I don't have to worry about shrapnel from a jacketed bullet hitting and killing my dog .several dogs on the continent are killed every year by jacketed projectiles breaking up.

I'll post my conclusions once load data is done.

 

[xavierdoc]

nnnnnnnnnnnnnnooooooooooooooooooooooooooo don't do it leave it nice, loud and proud lol, after tracking last weekend I went away with 5 lever fans all wanting one so canny be all bad.

Mine are unsullied but I have thought about an invisible end-cap and a sneaky little mod.

My heart's not in it as it would spoil the great handling and classic looks. I'll live with electronic ear defenders instead.

 

[NigelM]

I have also done my research in great detail Nigel, but also my rifle like Wayne's is for a specific job , it is purely to be used for a tracking rifle , nothing else and also there is a reason for me using Barnes bullets , it's because they don't break up , they stay in one lump.

If I ever have to shoot over my dog , with a Barnes I don't have to worry about shrapnel from a jacketed bullet hitting and killing my dog .several dogs on the continent are killed every year by jacketed projectiles breaking up.

I'll post my conclusions once load data is done.

Thanks Lee. I will be really interested to see how you get on with them. Good point on the shrapnel. Are you worried about ricochet at all?

 

[caorach]

Agreed, but that isn't the only effect of a flat meplat. For a non-expanding projectile, a flat meplat produces a larger diameter wound channel than a spire-point.

But the non deforming spire point has the additional feature of producing its wound channel in a totally random place and direction

 

[xavierdoc]

If I ever have to shoot over my dog , with a Barnes I don't have to worry about shrapnel from a jacketed bullet hitting and killing my dog .several dogs on the continent are killed every year by jacketed projectiles breaking up.

I assume you mean shots where the deer isn't on the ground? I'd worry that an un-expanded bullet like a lower-velocity Barnes (not Grenade etc) would create high-energy secondary missiles (rocks/stones) that would threaten the dog? Not relevant if the deer is standing.

Not suggesting you're wrong- I don't know the answer.

 

[xavierdoc]

But the non deforming spire point has the additional feature of producing its wound channel in a totally random place and direction

Don't work for NATO, do you?

 

[Orion]

Suggest you have a good look at the 170gr Hornady FP Interlock. Having obtained a few boxes of these at a very good price I went around the interweb looking for information on loads for them in .308 Win, as they looked to me to be a suitable close quarter bullet for deer and boar. There is a fair amount of forum discussion about them only being suitable for relatively low velocity use from the 30-30 but that has proven to be unfounded.

Hornady themselves have produced data for the .300 Savage and, more importantly from my perspective, the .307 Win, (rimmed version of the .308 for lever guns that uses FP bullets popular in Spain), that gives velocities from 2000 to 2600, and the Lee reloading manual runs from a similar start velocity to 2700 using Vit powders - N140/N150 etc.

Could be an answer to your problem? And provide a single solution to both HD and boar.

 

[bewsher500]

Logic of loading down to min legal energy is based on less noise, less recoil in a light rifle and less chance of ricochet. .

didnt read all four pages so forgive me if repeating

the ricochet reduction doesn't follow
the reason a .22lr subsonic is known for ricochets is the low MV and the bullet construction that limits expansion

 

[caorach]

Not suggesting you're wrong- I don't know the answer.

I think that is always going to be the big problem with going for "situation specific" ammo - the minute you load up with a 110 grain Vmax the situation you find yourself in will demand a 410 grain lead bullet, or a Barnes bullet to pencil straight through or... Effectively you are trying to decide on the answer before you've seen the question so I don't think any of us know the answer.

A more general purpose ammo solution will mean you will always have something close to the right answer with you and at that point you can apply your brain to make up for any minor deficiencies.

 

[Southern]

Nigel,
There are so many ways to do this in a .308... I have tried a lot of different things, for youth training loads, light practice loads, mild loads to replicate military loads for the FR-7 and FR-8 ( short HK G3 barrels on a Mauser action), .300 Whisper loads...

Not knowing what you are tracking, and whether you need a heavy bullet or a lighter one, here are a few things I know from experience:

A well-placed shot from a 165 to 200 gr bullet that arrives at 1,700 fps and does not open at all, will completely penetrate a large animal, and leave a wound channel 3 or 4 times its diameter for a lot of it.

As several have said, no need for a premium bullet. Most are tough bullets. Only the Nosler Partition has as soft nose.

The Barnes TSX and TTSX will upset and expand at an impact above 1,800 fps if they hit any muscle or bone before entering the body cavity.

Likewise, most bullets 165-gr and heavier are made tough for larger game and either closer range from a .300 Savage or .30-40 Krag, or full-power .308 at 200 yards, or .30-06 / .300 H&H at 300 yards.

You can use a 150 or 170-gr flat nose .30-30 bullet, and load the .308 like a .30-30... a known entity. It works. A flat nose 158-gr out of a .357 carbine will flatten deer or cow elk with a proper shot ( done it, seen it done).

You can use a 125-gr Sierra ( or similar ) at 2,600 fps, with recoil like a .243. It has a 200 yard trajectory like a normal factory 165-gr load. It kills deer.

Before loading any of these up, why don't you buy some reduced loads, like the Federal ( heavier, slower bullet) or the Hornady and Remington ( 125-gr at 2,650 fps )?

------------------------------------

.308 reduced load:

125 grain Sierra, 42.3 grains of IMR 4895, CCI 200 primer
125 grain Sierra, 45.35 grains of H-4895, CCI 200 primer
125 grain any, 35.0 grains of H-4198, CCI 200

It should kick out about 2700 FPS from a 24-inch barrel, very accurate.


----- 125-gr M1A load for 200 yard matches -------

125 gr Speer TNT 2.75" OAL LC case, WLR or Rem primer
(M1A Supermatch, 1:12) Federal 210M primers
125 gr Nosler BT or Sierra 125 Prohunter work great, too

42.5 gr IMR-4895, 2,650 fps for all these
41.5 gr H-4895,
42.5 gr IMR-4064,
45.0 gr Varget.
I haven't found a combination that shot worse than 3/4 inch.

38.0 gr H-4985 = 2,600 fps in 24-inch Steyr. 2,450 fps in FR-8
Nosler BT or Sierra PH
Federal 210M primer
2.80 inches OAL
0.525" groups

----- 130-gr ---------------------

Speer 130-gr
2.75" OAL
38.0 gr H-4198, Fed 210M
2,650 fps

43.0 H-4895 2,675 fps from Steyr 24-inch

----- 150-gr mild -----------------

2,500 fps loads, various bullets and barrel lengths

150-gr SPT flat base or SST at 2,500 fps SST works well.
150-gr Hornady RN at 2,400 fps in Savage 99
150-gr Winchester FP .30-30 bullet at 2,350 fps from FR-8

40.5 gr H-4895 = 2,500 fps in 24-inch bolt action
41.5 gr IMR-4895 = 2,400 fps in 20-inch Mannlicher or Savage 99
41.0 gr IMR-4064 = 2,350 fps in 18.5 inch FR-8
40.5 gr Varget = 2,400 fps in 20-inch carbine
37.5 gr H-4895 = 2,390 fps in 24-inch Mannlicher ( .30-30 FN ).

---- 165-180 gr ------------------------------

Most 165 and heavier bullets are too tough for anything below a full power .30-40 Krag or .300 Savage load, as they are made to work in the .30-06 and .300 H&H and proper longer ranges.

Good FR-8 or Savage 99C load for woods, imitates .30-30 saddle gun.
40.0 gr H-4895 = 2,350 fps in 22-inch barrel ( .30-30 FN 170-gr)

 

[NigelM]

Southern, thank you very much for the detailed response. Looks like you have spent a great deal of time playing with reduced loads.

Having thought about all the input from everyone on here I think I have reached the following conclusion:

Rifle - The barrel is going to be cut to the shortest length at which I can still fit a Hardy moderator - getting the measure out last night it looks like about 17".

Bullet weight is going to be 150 grains - SD of .226 it's all I need for deer. At 150 grains and with a moderator on it I can stoke it up to about 2600 fps, possibly 2650 fps. At that point it is a useful 200 yd gun and not too extreme if indeed I do want to sell it on later.

In terms of bullet, I very much take on board Lee's comment on non fragmenting bullets for the benefit of the dog, who I'm pretty attached to, so it's either going to be a TTSX or a Partition. Yes they are a few pence more, but for the number of rounds I will shoot from it that hardly matters.

First powder to try will be H4895. Fast burning for a short barrel and pretty much up there on most peoples favorites list for the .308, including Southern it appears. Also has a good reputation for consistency in reduced loads if I want to play with them.

The worry will be ricochet. It's the balance of that vs fragmentation. I will just have to be very aware of it.

Thanks for all the input guys.

 

[caorach]

The worry will be ricochet. It's the balance of that vs fragmentation. I will just have to be very aware of it.

I'm launching 150 grain Partitions at about 2700fps, so basically the same load as you will be using.

Now I know one experience isn't much of an indicator but this might at least give you a little bit of reassurance:

I shot a wee sika stag that was following me about. Honestly. I'd no intention of shooting anything but this wee spiker stag walked about behind me for a while with the wind blowing from me to him. In the end I got fed up and shot him in the neck and he went straight down on a forestry track. The track is made of stone and they are sharp edged, flat faced quarried stones rather than rounded things with size varying between gravel and probably approx 6 inches along each side.

Once down the wee stag did a bit more leg waving than I expected from a neck shot deer and so I decided to put one through his head, just for safety and to ensure a rapid death, as he lay on the track. I did consider that I was pretty close (20 yards max) and the stones were under his head but after some consideration I shot him again in the head. I saw some blood on his ear and concluded that I'd gone high and put the bullet through his ear, so I shot him again in the head.

On confirming death it became clear that his neck was broken so he was never going to get up again and that both Partitions aimed at the head had hit exactly as planned, almost in the same spot, and gone straight through and into the stone track. There was no evidence of stones flying about (the blood on his ear had come out his ear hole on bullet impact) nor was there any evidence of a ricochet. There were no holes in the deer other than the entry and exit wounds.

I would have said that a stone track with large stones at random angles was probably a pretty high risk for a ricochet but both bullets effectively self destructed and nothing went anywhere it shouldn't have. In taking the shot I had a very high level of confidence that this would be the outcome.

I have seen copper jackets come back from steel targets and in my experience it has always been with pistol bullets and while you can never say never I suspect the risk is greatly reduced with rifle bullets especially if they are hitting the target, or stone, hard.