Becoming an A/W

[EMcC]

In one instance of a witnessed stalk as the candidate approached the downed Deer, he suddenly stopped and threw his hands in the air and declared " Oh my god I've failed " when I asked him what he meant he stated that he had brought the wrong coloured cable ties !
He had been taught on his course that they had to use blue ties.
That was where my experience came in and I reminded him that I had been 'gutting' Deer before cable ties were even thought of.
On hearing my words he realised that the course wasn't gospel , it also told me that he hadn't been doing many deer over the years he had been stalking.
He then carried out a gralloch with surgical precision and tied off with yellow cable ties.
On a subsequent beast, that was not part of the witnessed stalk, I showed him how to tie offf using no cable ties.

 

[bewsher500]

Bewsher, I totally agree with you that it makes sense for the AW to point out deer that candidates haven't seen purely from an efficiency point of view but you have to remember that it is not a guided stalk..

No of course I get that.
I guess the issue comes when you have candidates paying to shoot deer for an ICR on ground they have never seen before. more often than not I would imagine.

I wouldn't take on a lease or embark on a stalk by myself without having done my homework, knowing my boundaries, prevailing wind, topographical features, key areas likely to hold deer, footpaths, access points, habited areas/sites, roads, etc etc

Most "bought day" stalkers won't want to spend the time or waste yours by going through that so there has to be some element of discretion when it comes to putting the stalker in an unknown area to carry out an activity that they are very capable of.
Where do you draw the line on "assistance"?


If I am driving a road I don't know...I slow down, learn the road as I go.
If my passenger tells me there is a nice sweeping bend that can be taken in 4th coming up...he isn't helping me drive

 

[User00001]

I wouldn't take on a lease or embark on a stalk by myself without having done my homework, knowing my boundaries, prevailing wind, topographical features, key areas likely to hold deer, footpaths, access points, habited areas/sites, roads, etc etc


If I am driving a road I don't know...I slow down, learn the road as I go.
If my passenger tells me there is a nice sweeping bend that can be taken in 4th coming up...he isn't helping me drive

I cover all of these points in my briefing then expect them to proceed. If they have a query or want to check something along the way that's fine but I won't step in other than in the case of a safety boundary infringement. I may hold back if I see deer or make a point of looking at the dog if he's pointing but its up to the candidate to pick up on this. I don’t expect to have to give clues like this very often.

As for your point about the passenger not helping you drive by describing the road ahead, i'm afraid thats exactly what he's doing. We do it in the Coastguard all the time when driving on blues. In fact, unlike other emergency services, we're not actually allowed to drive single crewed on blues.

I suspect that we will have to agree to disagree on what constitutes assistance when witnessing, I know what I do and I am happy that it is within the guidance. I wouldn't want to do any more or any less.

 

[swarovski]

To the best of my knowledge there are 2 kinds of foxes, dogs and vixens

 

[countrryboy]

No of course I get that.
I guess the issue comes when you have candidates paying to shoot deer for an ICR on ground they have never seen before. more often than not I would imagine.

I wouldn't take on a lease or embark on a stalk by myself without having done my homework, knowing my boundaries, prevailing wind, topographical features, key areas likely to hold deer, footpaths, access points, habited areas/sites, roads, etc etc

Most "bought day" stalkers won't want to spend the time or waste yours by going through that so there has to be some element of discretion when it comes to putting the stalker in an unknown area to carry out an activity that they are very capable of.
Where do you draw the line on "assistance"?


If I am driving a road I don't know...I slow down, learn the road as I go.
If my passenger tells me there is a nice sweeping bend that can be taken in 4th coming up...he isn't helping me drive

Ur quite right, i is a really strange thing going out with a AW.
I went out a couple of times with an AW i know, he drove but when we left his gates i had to direct him where to drive with a 20'000 acre estate to go at, even thou i know the estate pretty well it is quite duanting, spyed some deer that were moving slowly across the field, that field is deer fenced 3/4 of the way round and i asked him if that 100m was deer fenced and he said he couldnae tell me, as i moved into position for a shot i seen them disapear into the wood Wasted a bit of time getting into a firing position when if he told me was only stock fenced i would of ignored them. Plus we were strapped for time as i was only out for an hour at last knockings



He says he does the same with strangers and encourages them to put in a bit of recon time from the public roads, i thought it was just a bit needlessly harsh (fair enough if he parks u up in a deery place u lead the stalk) but that is the way he interepts the guidlines and to be fair he is a perfectionist if u get an ICR with him there is no doubt u know ur stuff

 

[bewsher500]

Ur quite right, it is a really strange thing going out with a AW.
I went out a couple of times with an AW i know, he drove but when we left his gates i had to direct him where to drive with a 20'000 acre estate to go at, even thou i know the estate pretty well it is quite duanting, spyed some deer that were moving slowly across the field, that field is deer fenced 3/4 of the way round and i asked him if that 100m was deer fenced and he said he couldnae tell me,

Plus we were strapped for time as i was only out for an hour at last knockings

He says he does the same with strangers and encourages them to put in a bit of recon time from the public roads, i thought it was just a bit needlessly harsh (fair enough if he parks u up in a deery place u lead the stalk) but that is the way he interprets the guidelines and to be fair he is a perfectionist if u get an ICR with him there is no doubt u know ur stuff

Pointless attitude IMO
Your ICR won't be held up as better than everyone else's so why be so obtuse about it?

 

[sikamalc]

UKSHA may have someone nearby, on the other hand they may well not. Either way if a candidate is on MY ground my dog is with me. And I have used him a couple of times over the years when a Level 2 candidate has needed to request to use the dog, both times with good outcomes, and up to now no issues with the signing off and completion of their Level 2.

 

[EMcC]

It is perfectly acceptable for the candidate not to have a dog but when questioned as to what action he would take should a Deer need follow up, then he would be expected to have access to one by means of a friend or someone he can contact.
The important thing is that he needs to know what action to take instead of just giving up.
I have known non Deer trained 'ordinary' pet dogs find downed Deer just by 'wondering around' and found the animal purely from curiosity so quite often, if push comes to shove, a dog of sorts can usually be found.

 

[willie_gunn]

It is perfectly acceptable for the candidate not to have a dog but when questioned as to what action he would take should a Deer need follow up, then he would be expected to have access to one by means of a friend or someone he can contact.
The important thing is that he needs to know what action to take instead of just giving up.
I have known non Deer trained 'ordinary' pet dogs find downed Deer just by 'wondering around' and found the animal purely from curiosity so quite often, if push comes to shove, a dog of sorts can usually be found.

Eddie

It's Sunday, so I'm going to be needlessly pedantic here

I don't see, strictly speaking, that a candidate is "expected to have access to one [a deer dog] by means of a friend or someone he can contact".

Although obviously desirable, the measurement criteria simply states that "A wounded deer situation during assessment should be rare, however a candidate needs to demonstrate that they would know what do if it did occur". So all the candidate needs to be able to do is say that a deer dog could be useful in this situation, not prove they have access to one.

It will be interesting to see how things develop, and whether we get to the point where a witness could fail to sign off PC 2.6 because the candidate can't prove they have direct access to a deer dog....all the more so because there's no easy definition of what actually qualifies as a "deer dog".

 

[EMcC]

I should have said the candidate should know the answer that would be expected should an animal make off wounded.
It would be ideal if a Candidate had someone to call upon if a dog were needed, and if he/she told me that was what would happen should such a situation arise, I would not disbelieve him/her because all stalkers are good guys and gals , aren't they
As long as they know what is expected of them then that is what goes into the portfolio and so far has been accepted for the ones where it has arisen during my witness stalks.
I have, however, had some candidates turn up with dogs and it has been a pleasure to see how biddable they are.
On one occassion it was as if the candidate and his dog could talk to each other using sign language and facial gestures, fantastic to see and it wasn't a special 'Deer' breed of dog either.
Fortunately or otherwise it was not needed so I didn't see it search but other than that, I saw everything else, even spotting or suspecting a Deer to be in the area and intimating to his owner.

 

[mereside]

This has been very interesting reading and not to steer to far away but to answer your points willie, too much emphasis is put onto the dog part.
what action he would take should a Deer need follow up and for us in the UKSHA shot site is the key to the follow up this comes before any dog.
Can that shot site be found, can you determine where the animal was hit either by watching the reaction and then seeing it in the strike area, this needs to be drummed in from level 1 then in practice in level 2 we are trying to change best practice for the follow up but it is a slow process.
Things have moved on from having a fag sitting back then go in to find the beast certain injury rushing in will only lose that beast without a properly trained dog to work from the go, looking at the shot site is key before getting the dog and yes what is a trained deer dog?. Things are changing in the uk but it will take time but it will be for the better.
once a deer is wounded and run off everyone has a chance to ring the UKSHA to come out to help, not every situation needs us to come out but that comes with looking carefully at the shot site to determine whats happened,old methods are still being pushed as best practice when it is very outdated and these methods do not help you recover the beast, atb wayne

 

[geoffrey]

Just a little note to thank all members for their input to this thread, lots of different opinions, and schools of thought, which has led to a very interesting and informative debate, thanks one and all, cheers Geoff

 

[Viktor]

As a new member and novice stalker if I wanted to get my DSC 2 I would want to be judged and to learn from the most knowledgeable and professional person I could fined who has shot just every deer there is and is knowledgeable in all aspects of deer stalking Management and anatomy surely a cwd guts compared to a big red is like comparing a mini with a 10 ton truck the engine works on the same principle but there bigger and have different problems and like any thing you learn you should always learn from the best and most experience person you can fined if you wanted to be a doctor would you want to learn from a young inexperienced doctor or one that,s been in the job for 40 years.
That,s the problem today everyone wants to be an expert but no one has time to learn a craft properly.

 

[User00014]

As a new member and novice stalker if I wanted to get my DSC 2 I would want to be judged and to learn from the most knowledgeable and professional person I could fined who has shot just every deer there is and is knowledgeable in all aspects of deer stalking Management and anatomy surely a cwd guts compared to a big red is like comparing a mini with a 10 ton truck the engine works on the same principle but there bigger and have different problems and like any thing you learn you should always learn from the best and most experience person you can fined if you wanted to be a doctor would you want to learn from a young inexperienced doctor or one that,s been in the job for 40 years.
That,s the problem today everyone wants to be an expert but no one has time to learn a craft properly.

Your last sentance says it all !

 

[foxinmad]

Just a little note to thank all members for their input to this thread, lots of different opinions, and schools of thought, which has led to a very interesting and informative debate, thanks one and all, cheers Geoff

+1 on this from me

 

[Dickie]

Victor you miss the point as many others do you go out stalking and learn what it's about then you go out with an AW and show them that's what it's all about, they are not there to teach if you need teaching then the stalk should become stopped as one of your dsc2 stalks and you get taught.


cheers

 

[baguio]

That,s the problem today everyone wants to be an expert but no one has time to learn a craft properly.

I disagree. I think that most would find the time. It's the lack of trainers willing to take people out that is the problem. Too many have been s**t on by novices (who subsequently try to steal their land) or they're just too busy. If you want to start stalking, are not super rich and do not have experienced stalking contacts then what are you supposed to do? You want to become an expert and have plenty of spare time. Neither will help you much IMO unless you get very lucky!
Baguio

 

[cervus1981]

I passed my driving test yesterday, 10 lessons then pass first time! I am now going to get a job as a driving test examiner. No bother I can drive there's nothing to it! Start the engine, put it in gear and off I go. I haven't driven on a motorway yet, but what's the difference? It's all the same isn't it? My Dad has been driving for 50 years says I haven't enough experience of driving in various conditions in all weathers and on different roads, but what does he know?

 

[6pointer]

I passed my driving test yesterday, 10 lessons then pass first time! I am now going to get a job as a driving test examiner. No bother I can drive there's nothing to it! Start the engine, put it in gear and off I go. I haven't driven on a motorway yet, but what's the difference? It's all the same isn't it? My Dad has been driving for 50 years says I haven't enough experience of driving in various conditions in all weathers and on different roads, but what does he know?

So whos at fault because you cant become a Driving instructor or a Driving examiner until you have been driving for 4 + years have a clean Driving licence and pass three tests on the first case and two in the second. So becoming an AW is nothing like any exam process its just if you want to do it. Not good but I am sure if/when its is made a legal requirement in Scotland then things will definitely need to change.

 

[Tackleberry270]

Personally I think the single most disruptive and divisive factor to qualification is ego. Followed closely by ignorance. From what I can see there is at least one Assessor for the DSC2 that has taken the time to reply to this thread. Some are probably best rereading it from the start.

... not suggesting all AWs are perfect with pure motives but the certificate process is good and there are ways of weeding out the bad ones.