Drug Smugglers executed in Indonesia

[Heym SR20]

Macheavelli's The Prince has a whole chapter on Just Executions - if you are going to execute somebody, then he has to understand and accept the punishment. If he doesn't, then his family and friends have to accept that it is just and right to execute the condemned. If they don't accept, then as the ruler you had better be prepared to take their heads off as well otherwise you will have a rebellion on your hands.

Capital punishment does nt have much to do with justice, but everything to do with political will and power over people. Why do oppressive regimes have the highest execution rate - nothing to do with any more criminals, everything to do with political will. If you like a support the death penalty, go and have a chat with a few ordinary people in Iran, the Islamic State, Pakistan, Indonesia, Zimbabwe or even poor neighbourhoods in the US, or go back in time to Georgian / Victorian UK - I am not sure you will find many supporting the death penalty, but plenty of people living in fear of their lives.

I for one do not and can never support the death penalty - most crime is a product of poverty, greed or depression / loss of control and education and common humanity can sort most of that out, but I do accept there will always be those who are beyond control and we do need a way of removing them from society - prison and mental institutions.

You do have to accept that there will be a very small element that just wishes to cause harm and they will never be deterred by the death penalty.

 

[geordieh]

I would take it a lot further than that you get done for thieving 3 times you are no use to society you get hanged.There is no excuse that you are innocent, the chance of a miscarriage of justice 3 times is very slim.Could I be hangman? No problem.

 

[Bandit Country]

Here's a thought to ponder. Once upon a time in this green and pleasant land, poaching was a capital crime.

Great! If we can make a case for reintroducing lynx, beaver, wolves etc, so that the country is 'like it used to be', how about a campaign to reintroduce the death penalty for poaching? Gets my vote.

As for the poor sods that have been executed, I have a problem with the cultural imperialism manifest by the (faux?) outrage from various quarters. We would give very short shrift to anyone from abroad who suggested that jailing pedophiles was abhorrent to them because it is normal/accepted behaviour in their society... I think we should get our own house in order before we start pointing fingers at another country's criminal justice system.

 

[sharkey]

As for the poor sods that have been executed, I have a problem with the cultural imperialism manifest by the (faux?) outrage from various quarters. We would give very short shrift to anyone from abroad who suggested that jailing pedophiles was abhorrent to them because it is normal/accepted behaviour in their society... I think we should get our own house in order before we start pointing fingers at another country's criminal justice system.

I was going to stay out of this thread but the above has motivated me to add a bit of "insight" into this discussion.

Yes the two Australians were guilty of drug smuggling. They were caught because the father of one of the smugglers contacted the Aust Fed Police well in advance & asked them to prevent the attempt to bring the drugs into Aust (they were not being trafficked into Indon). The Federal police instead of finding the Mr Big's then tipped off the Indon police & they were arrested in Indon, not upon entry into Aust. Why did it go down like this, & why weren't the Mr Bigs ever charged in Indon?

Allegedly they were offered a life sentence instead of death for $130 000 each, but allegedly this was withdrawn due to political pressure to execute them instead. More why's

It's been 10 years since the actual crime & even the biggest sceptic would see that these two have reformed somewhat. Who didn't do something dumb when they were 21? No I'm not downplaying the seriousness of drug trafficking or the effect upon the lives of addicts & their families.

Imperialism? Surly you jest? Is it not Indonesia making the power statement in this play?

I do declare my bias against the death penalty. All it achieves is to further oppress the poorest in society & to promote corruption in governance (we have the power to kill you). It does very little to prevent crime.

Sharkey

 

[Pedro]

The death penalty in the UK has always had it's advocates. Since the death penalty was abolished there were regular votes in Parliament on the subject that were always defeated. Over the passage of time, many of those who were for capital punishment have changed their mind. Even the UK's most prolific executioner in the 20th century, Albert Pierrepoint became a sceptic. Our membership of the EU now in effect forbids it's reintroduction. No state can be a member and be in the EU. Throughout the world, over time, the countries that have the death penalty are growing less.

The rates of murder in this country before and after abolition show that the death penalty was no deterrent. In fact the majority of those executed here were generally for domestic murders, where the perpetrators paid no heed to the consequences of their actions.

You could argue that some crimes or some criminals thoroughly deserve to be put to death and with that, I wouldn't argue. Whether the state has the right to do that and whether it's morally right to do it are however questions that go beyond that.

As far as the UK goes, the debate is a historical one. It doesn't happen now and there's no chance it'll ever happen again.

 

[finnbear270]

The death penalty in the UK has always had it's advocates. Since the death penalty was abolished there were regular votes in Parliament on the subject that were always defeated. Over the passage of time, many of those who were for capital punishment have changed their mind.

Even the UK's most prolific executioner in the 20th century, Albert Pierrepoint became a sceptic.

Our membership of the EU now in effect forbids it's reintroduction. No state can be a member and be in the EU. Throughout the world, over time, the countries that have the death penalty are growing less.

The rates of murder in this country before and after abolition show that the death penalty was no deterrent. In fact the majority of those executed here were generally for domestic murders, where the perpetrators paid no heed to the consequences of their actions.

You could argue that some crimes or some criminals thoroughly deserve to be put to death and with that, I wouldn't argue. Whether the state has the right to do that and whether it's morally right to do it are however questions that go beyond that.

As far as the UK goes, the debate is a historical one. It doesn't happen now and there's no chance it'll ever happen again.

Mr Pierrepoint was in fact sacked by the Home Office for arriving the worse for drink to an execution appointment, & spooky for me, I was an apprentice in Chester's Pierrepoint lane, named after the guy.

 

[Pedro]

Mr Pierrepoint was in fact sacked by the Home Office for arriving the worse for drink to an execution appointment, & spooky for me, I was an apprentice in Chester's Pierrepoint lane, named after the guy.

I thought that was his uncle, also named Pierrepoint although he may have also. What I was referring to was the evidence he gave to the enquiry on capital punishment at the time. But we split hairs I feel.

 

[User00025]

What's with all the God gibberish you mite as well believe in little green men, if their guilty kill the lot.

At least we are lucky and unlike you we have something to look forward to.
Oh by the way little green men are great on toast with a bit of ketchup,the colours go well together.

 

[rover]

i wonder if the ones agreeing with it would as quick to agree if it was one of there kids ...but nah yours would never do that eh

Hi, All very well we raise our family to do the right thing, you can only hope that they follow that line. If they execute every drug dealer, trafficker, mule whatever we want to call them. Then there would be no drugs no temptation for our kids to take them. Yes execute them they know the punishment of that country they are dealing from, it is only greed for easy money with no second thought of where the drugs end up.
Jim

 

[tackb]

whether you/I agree with the death penalty or not is the subject for another debate , the law is what it is in Indonesia , it's not a secret ? by breaking it you are risking being subjected to the law of the land you are in.

life is a succession of calculated risks , if you risk smuggling drugs in a country that has the death penalty then you are possibly calculating that risk incorrectly.

 

[old man]

Agree tackb, IMHO, FWIW, Indonesia can and should do as Indonesia wants?

Who are we to comment?

 

[Bandit Country]

Imperialism? Surly you jest? Is it not Indonesia making the power statement in this play?

Jest? Not at all. The point is that it's Indonesia, it's their Country, it's their ball park, their rules .... For a bunch of liberal(?), anti-death penalty folk in the western world to lecture a foreign country on how it should behave is cultural imperialism when we're judging them by our standards, our rules, our ethos...

As for the perpetrators having reformed somewhat, after 10 years in an Indonesian jail, with a death penalty hanging over them - that's hardly a surprise is it?

Who didn't do something dumb when they were 21? I have to declare my bias here, at 21 I was so dumb I was serving Queen and Country, not planning to smuggle drugs into my home country. I can only presume that everybody who is against the death penalty is also vociferously lobbying their democratic representatives to disband their armed forces, cancel Trident and stop bombing ISIL? If you support your armed forces you are complicit in supporting state sponsored death and destruction. It's worth noting that Australians have been particularly effective in this role over the last few years.

 

[Eric the Red]

Firing Squad...... is it covered by AOLQ, or do you need Human(e) Dispatch as a condition too?

 

[sharkey]

Jest? Not at all. The point is that it's Indonesia, it's their Country, it's their ball park, their rules .... For a bunch of liberal(?), anti-death penalty folk in the western world to lecture a foreign country on how it should behave is cultural imperialism when we're judging them by our standards, our rules, our ethos...

As for the perpetrators having reformed somewhat, after 10 years in an Indonesian jail, with a death penalty hanging over them - that's hardly a surprise is it?

Who didn't do something dumb when they were 21? I have to declare my bias here, at 21 I was so dumb I was serving Queen and Country, not planning to smuggle drugs into my home country. I can only presume that everybody who is against the death penalty is also vociferously lobbying their democratic representatives to disband their armed forces, cancel Trident and stop bombing ISIL? If you support your armed forces you are complicit in supporting state sponsored death and destruction. It's worth noting that Australians have been particularly effective in this role over the last few years.

This particular case highlights the current tensions between Australia & Indonesia since the new president was elected, & also highlights that the death penalty is often more about power than justice or punishment.

I'm glad you can agree that these two were somewhat reformed after 10 years. Indonesia under their own law (we are talking about their law?) must put those on death row for 10 years into a "provisional position" (their term?) with the ability for the sentence to be commuted. If the intent of the death penalty is that it is used as a deterrent, then it looses its effectiveness the longer it takes to be carried out. I'm not sure how much you know about this case but is has been a complete balls up from the time one of the drug smugglers fathers contacted the Aust Federal police about their plans to smuggle drugs into Aust.

War should not be confused with punishment or justice unless of course action is triggered by an abuse of basic rights on a population. The intent of war then should be to fight for & establish such freedoms, not to deny them.

I still don't see the "Imperialism" as you have suggested coming from Aust in all of this. The Indonesian president is the one flexing his muscles. Indonesia was a Dutch colony & Aust a British, so I also fail to see any historical relevance which could be recycled.

Sharkey

 

[Yoda]

What's the SD massive opinion on this? Should they have been executed?

Yes

 

[375 mag]

We should give the contract to run our prisons to Indonesia send them all over there it would be cheaper and i bet the re offending would be down to zero

 

[Bandit Country]

I still don't see the "Imperialism" as you have suggested coming from Aust in all of this. Sharkey

I'm certainly culturally aware enough to know that the use of the word 'imperialism' might raise the hackles of a bolshie Digger, but I haven't actually accused any Australians or your great nation of imperialism. While you may have a beef with the Federal Police in your country and may not agree with the death penalty in Indonesia that has nothing to do with the fact that it's their Country and their law.

"War should not be confused with punishment or justice unless of course action is triggered by an abuse of basic rights on a population". Is that like the basic right of self-determination? Seems to me that the Indonesians have determined that they will execute drug smugglers, so who are we to object? I'm not confusing war with punishment or justice, it is after all, simply the continuation of politics by other means - and the death penalty is all about politics, a fact that President Widodo clearly appreciates.

 

[mchughcb]

Media. Hand wringing. They have gotten more press than the ANZAC soldiers.

Harold and Kumar were not the first. Before there was

Barlow and Chambers.

All the travel warnings are clear. Drugs - death sentence.

 

[harry243]

What's the SD massive opinion on this? Should they have been executed?

Indonesia executions: Australia recalls ambassador - BBC News

yes

 

[enfieldspares]

What's the SD massive opinion on this? Should they have been executed?

If, and only if, the trial and "due process" was above any hint of corruption. But reading the back story re the Filipino woman it seems that it may not have been.

And for that, Stefan Kiszko as noted, I don't support capital punishment. I've no sympathy with the people who do these crimes and am no "do gooder" simply put it is but I fear to say that I don't trust the police.