So . . . .

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Rob-E said:
...Other sources that provide the same info are:
Click to expand...

It matters not one wit how often the same publication is referenced or by whom. That confers no greater validity to the content.

Recall that Lagarde, Carney and Osborne predicted, pre referendum, that a leave vote would cause the UK sky to fall before Christmas 2016. That did not happen.

The best ever quote I have come across regarding long term economic forcasting was by that doyen of the subject John Kenneth Galbraith when he said " The only function of economics is to make astrology look respectable "

History records that EU membership has been expensive in terms of high membership costs and that EU market share of the global economy is shrinking. That is not nebulous forecasting, that is verifiable actuality. It is utterly clear that EU leadership are driving us towards federation. That the erosion of democracy is a deliberate component of the stewardship of the EU:

A whole range of European leaders have made abundantly clear the EU’s political agenda, such as Jean Monnet:

“Europe’s nations should be guided towards the super-state without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation”

And Jean-Claude Juncker: “There can be no democratic choice against the European Treaties”.
 
Breaking news!!!!
Well Brexit appears to be happening already here in East Kent today.
1. A facing the wrong way 40 tonner truck on the M2 that appeared to have been driving as a geistefaher for ca. 7 miles on the wrong carriageway till the boys in blue got to him he was parked up on the hard shoulder. The 30mph limit signs were lit up for miles.
2. The Channel Tunnel entrance was clogged up with trucks way back onto the M20.
3. Trucks were backed up in the left lane going towards Dover about from halfway back to the Folkstone tunnel.
Interesting times.
66 days to go till the mooring is slipped.
 
Picked up off another post from a friend:

WHY IS NOBODY TALKING ABOUT THE LISBON TREATY, THE TREATY THAT COMES INTO FORCE 2020, ITS WORSE THAN THE SO CALLED DEAL, IF 99% OF THE BRITISH THINK THIS THE DEAL IS BAD JUST LOOK AT THE LISBON TREATY. PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW, LEAVERS AND REMAINERS..“What will actually happen if we stay in the EU” is a question no remainer will ever answer but here it is warts and all.
Check it out if you wish ——>>
1: The UK along with all existing members of the EU lose their abstention veto in 2020 as laid down in the Lisbon Treaty when the system changes to that of majority acceptance with no abstentions or veto’s being allowed.
2: All member nations will become states of the new federal nation of the EU by 2022 as clearly laid out in the Lisbon treaty with no exceptions or veto’s.
3: All member states must adopt the Euro by 2022 and any new member state must do so within 2 years of joining the EU as laid down in the Lisbon treaty.
4: The London stock exchange will move to Frankfurt in 2020 and be integrated into the EU stock exchange resulting in a loss of 200,000 plus jobs in the UK because of the relocation. (This has already been pre-agreed and is only on a holding pattern due to the Brexit negotiations, which if Brexit does happen, the move is fully cancelled - but if not and the UK remains a member it’s full steam ahead for the move.)
5: The EU Parliament and ECJ become supreme over all legislative bodies of the UK.
6: The UK will adopt 100% of whatever the EU Parliament and ECJ lays down without any means of abstention or veto, negating the need for the UK to have the Lords or even the Commons as we know it today.
7: The UK will NOT be able to make its own trade deals.
8: The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade tariffs.
9 The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade quotas.
10: The UK loses control of its fishing rights
11: The UK loses control of its oil and gas rights
12: The UK loses control of its borders and enters the Schengen region by 2022 - as clearly laid down in the Lisbon treaty
13: The UK loses control of its planning legislation
14: The UK loses control of its armed forces including its nuclear deterrent
15: The UK loses full control of its taxation policy
16: The UK loses the ability to create its own laws and to implement them
17: The UK loses its standing in the Commonwealths
18: The UK loses control of any provinces or affiliated nations e.g.: Falklands, Cayman Islands, Gibraltar etc
19: The UK loses control of its judicial system
20: The UK loses control of its international policy
21: The UK loses full control of its national policy
22: The UK loses its right to call itself a nation in its own right.
23: The UK loses control of its space exploration program
24: The UK loses control of its Aviation and Sea lane jurisdiction
25: The UK loses its rebate in 2020 as laid down in the Lisbon treaty
26: The UK’s contribution to the EU is set to increase by an average of 1.2bn pa and by 2.3bn pa by 2020
This is the future that the youths of today think we stole from them?

They should be on their knees thanking us for saving them from being turned into Orwellian automatons!
 
deeangeo said:
Picked up off another post from a friend:

WHY IS NOBODY TALKING ABOUT THE LISBON TREATY, THE TREATY THAT COMES INTO FORCE 2020, ITS WORSE THAN THE SO CALLED DEAL, IF 99% OF THE BRITISH THINK THIS THE DEAL IS BAD JUST LOOK AT THE LISBON TREATY. PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW, LEAVERS AND REMAINERS..“What will actually happen if we stay in the EU” is a question no remainer will ever answer but here it is warts and all.
Check it out if you wish ——>>
1: The UK along with all existing members of the EU lose their abstention veto in 2020 as laid down in the Lisbon Treaty when the system changes to that of majority acceptance with no abstentions or veto’s being allowed.
2: All member nations will become states of the new federal nation of the EU by 2022 as clearly laid out in the Lisbon treaty with no exceptions or veto’s.
3: All member states must adopt the Euro by 2022 and any new member state must do so within 2 years of joining the EU as laid down in the Lisbon treaty.
4: The London stock exchange will move to Frankfurt in 2020 and be integrated into the EU stock exchange resulting in a loss of 200,000 plus jobs in the UK because of the relocation. (This has already been pre-agreed and is only on a holding pattern due to the Brexit negotiations, which if Brexit does happen, the move is fully cancelled - but if not and the UK remains a member it’s full steam ahead for the move.)
5: The EU Parliament and ECJ become supreme over all legislative bodies of the UK.
6: The UK will adopt 100% of whatever the EU Parliament and ECJ lays down without any means of abstention or veto, negating the need for the UK to have the Lords or even the Commons as we know it today.
7: The UK will NOT be able to make its own trade deals.
8: The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade tariffs.
9 The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade quotas.
10: The UK loses control of its fishing rights
11: The UK loses control of its oil and gas rights
12: The UK loses control of its borders and enters the Schengen region by 2022 - as clearly laid down in the Lisbon treaty
13: The UK loses control of its planning legislation
14: The UK loses control of its armed forces including its nuclear deterrent
15: The UK loses full control of its taxation policy
16: The UK loses the ability to create its own laws and to implement them
17: The UK loses its standing in the Commonwealths
18: The UK loses control of any provinces or affiliated nations e.g.: Falklands, Cayman Islands, Gibraltar etc
19: The UK loses control of its judicial system
20: The UK loses control of its international policy
21: The UK loses full control of its national policy
22: The UK loses its right to call itself a nation in its own right.
23: The UK loses control of its space exploration program
24: The UK loses control of its Aviation and Sea lane jurisdiction
25: The UK loses its rebate in 2020 as laid down in the Lisbon treaty
26: The UK’s contribution to the EU is set to increase by an average of 1.2bn pa and by 2.3bn pa by 2020
This is the future that the youths of today think we stole from them?

They should be on their knees thanking us for saving them from being turned into Orwellian automatons!
Click to expand...
Nice post matey
 
deeangeo said:
Picked up off another post from a friend:

WHY IS NOBODY TALKING ABOUT THE LISBON TREATY, THE TREATY THAT COMES INTO FORCE 2020, ITS WORSE THAN THE SO CALLED DEAL, IF 99% OF THE BRITISH THINK THIS THE DEAL IS BAD JUST LOOK AT THE LISBON TREATY. PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW, LEAVERS AND REMAINERS..
Click to expand...

Because none of that is actually true. I'd be amazed if you had a credible source for any of that. Here is what the Treaty of Lisbon actually contains:

The Treaty of Lisbon | Fact Sheets on the European Union | European Parliament
 
Pine Marten said:
Because none of that is actually true. I'd be amazed if you had a credible source for any of that. Here is what the Treaty of Lisbon actually contains:

The Treaty of Lisbon | Fact Sheets on the European Union | European Parliament
Click to expand...

Well, that list had a slightly jingoistic feel, so I agree recursive reading of the Lisbon Treaty should be on all our agendas. Here is a starter for 10:

It turns out that the EU gets to take over more competencies over time. (For competency read "things that used to be decided by your nation are now decided by the EU"). Worse, the EU tries to make it sound like a democratic virtue that there exists an "early warning mechanism" by which nation states can flag discord with EU diktats. But note the summary below. Any dissenting nation has to get 9 other nations to dissent in same vein before the EU does anything. How likely is that? And even then, the limit of their unified dissent is to get the EU overlords to reconsider. Toothless!

This is divide and conquer. Danke, aber nein danke.



LisbonTreaty.webp
 
deeangeo said:
Picked up off another post from a friend:

WHY IS NOBODY TALKING ABOUT THE LISBON TREATY, THE TREATY THAT COMES INTO FORCE 2020, ITS WORSE THAN THE SO CALLED DEAL, IF 99% OF THE BRITISH THINK THIS THE DEAL IS BAD JUST LOOK AT THE LISBON TREATY. PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW, LEAVERS AND REMAINERS..“What will actually happen if we stay in the EU” is a question no remainer will ever answer but here it is warts and all.
Check it out if you wish ——>>
1: The UK along with all existing members of the EU lose their abstention veto in 2020 as laid down in the Lisbon Treaty when the system changes to that of majority acceptance with no abstentions or veto’s being allowed.
2: All member nations will become states of the new federal nation of the EU by 2022 as clearly laid out in the Lisbon treaty with no exceptions or veto’s.
3: All member states must adopt the Euro by 2022 and any new member state must do so within 2 years of joining the EU as laid down in the Lisbon treaty.
4: The London stock exchange will move to Frankfurt in 2020 and be integrated into the EU stock exchange resulting in a loss of 200,000 plus jobs in the UK because of the relocation. (This has already been pre-agreed and is only on a holding pattern due to the Brexit negotiations, which if Brexit does happen, the move is fully cancelled - but if not and the UK remains a member it’s full steam ahead for the move.)
5: The EU Parliament and ECJ become supreme over all legislative bodies of the UK.
6: The UK will adopt 100% of whatever the EU Parliament and ECJ lays down without any means of abstention or veto, negating the need for the UK to have the Lords or even the Commons as we know it today.
7: The UK will NOT be able to make its own trade deals.
8: The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade tariffs.
9 The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade quotas.
10: The UK loses control of its fishing rights
11: The UK loses control of its oil and gas rights
12: The UK loses control of its borders and enters the Schengen region by 2022 - as clearly laid down in the Lisbon treaty
13: The UK loses control of its planning legislation
14: The UK loses control of its armed forces including its nuclear deterrent
15: The UK loses full control of its taxation policy
16: The UK loses the ability to create its own laws and to implement them
17: The UK loses its standing in the Commonwealths
18: The UK loses control of any provinces or affiliated nations e.g.: Falklands, Cayman Islands, Gibraltar etc
19: The UK loses control of its judicial system
20: The UK loses control of its international policy
21: The UK loses full control of its national policy
22: The UK loses its right to call itself a nation in its own right.
23: The UK loses control of its space exploration program
24: The UK loses control of its Aviation and Sea lane jurisdiction
25: The UK loses its rebate in 2020 as laid down in the Lisbon treaty
26: The UK’s contribution to the EU is set to increase by an average of 1.2bn pa and by 2.3bn pa by 2020
This is the future that the youths of today think we stole from them?

They should be on their knees thanking us for saving them from being turned into Orwellian automatons!
Click to expand...


I am guessing no one picked up on it, because its an absolute pile of horse poo written by a moron in a tin foil hat?

Just a guess mind

If your not convinced then perhaps read mr Junkers statement on the subject in 2016?

"It is recognised that the United Kingdom, in the light of the specific situation it has under the Treaties, is not committed to further political integration into the European Union. The substance of this will be incorporated into the Treaties at the time of their next revision in accordance with the relevant provisions of the Treaties and the respective constitutional requirements of the Member States, so as to make it clear that the references to ever closer union do not apply to the United Kingdom."

Comment on Cameron's reform

Mr Cameron has secured a commitment to exempt Britain from "ever closer union" to be written into the treaties. He has also negotiated the inclusion of a "red-card" mechanism, a new power. If 55% of national parliaments agree, they could effectively block or veto a commission proposal. The question is how likely is this "red card" system to be used. A much weaker "yellow card" was only used twice. The red-card mechanism depends crucially on building alliances. The sceptics say it does not come close to winning the UK back control of its own affairs - and Mr Cameron is set to announce further measures which he claims will put the sovereignty of the Westminster Parliament "beyond doubt".

Some key areas also appear to be have been dropped along the way. There will be no repatriation of EU social and employment law, which was a 2010 manifesto commitment. There will be no changes to the working-hours directive.

The FACT is the UK was the most powerfull and most independent nation in the EU. And you lot want to throw that away

But hey, print what ever rubbish you like, I am sure someone is gullible enough to believe it
 
Chasey said:
...A much weaker "yellow card" was only used twice. The red-card mechanism depends crucially on building alliances. The sceptics say it does not come close to winning the UK back control of its own affairs - ".
Click to expand...

If we quote your posts do the leave concerns hold water?

You have re-printed my earlier point: how QM surplants veto going forward, a mathematically calculated QM wording that emasculates national parliament will.

The reality (also in your own quote) is that the mechanism requires that 55% of national governments* agree to differ with the EU en masse. Actually, it is not that simple but hey, that impossible hurdle should be enough of a frightener.

I do not take anything Juncker or Cameron says at face value. The wording of signed treaties and the sum of past actions should be our sole reference points.

In summary, Lisbon Treaty says "over to EU".


* provided those Council members also represent more than 65% of the EU population - effectively watering down smaller states ability to demur, however valid their position.


Article16LisbonTreatyQM.webp
 
deeangeo said:
Picked up off another post from a friend:

WHY IS NOBODY TALKING ABOUT THE LISBON TREATY, THE TREATY THAT COMES INTO FORCE 2020, ITS WORSE THAN THE SO CALLED DEAL, IF 99% OF THE BRITISH THINK THIS THE DEAL IS BAD JUST LOOK AT THE LISBON TREATY. PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW, LEAVERS AND REMAINERS..“What will actually happen if we stay in the EU” is a question no remainer will ever answer but here it is warts and all.
Check it out if you wish ——>>
1: The UK along with all existing members of the EU lose their abstention veto in 2020 as laid down in the Lisbon Treaty when the system changes to that of majority acceptance with no abstentions or veto’s being allowed.
2: All member nations will become states of the new federal nation of the EU by 2022 as clearly laid out in the Lisbon treaty with no exceptions or veto’s.
3: All member states must adopt the Euro by 2022 and any new member state must do so within 2 years of joining the EU as laid down in the Lisbon treaty.
4: The London stock exchange will move to Frankfurt in 2020 and be integrated into the EU stock exchange resulting in a loss of 200,000 plus jobs in the UK because of the relocation. (This has already been pre-agreed and is only on a holding pattern due to the Brexit negotiations, which if Brexit does happen, the move is fully cancelled - but if not and the UK remains a member it’s full steam ahead for the move.)
5: The EU Parliament and ECJ become supreme over all legislative bodies of the UK.
6: The UK will adopt 100% of whatever the EU Parliament and ECJ lays down without any means of abstention or veto, negating the need for the UK to have the Lords or even the Commons as we know it today.
7: The UK will NOT be able to make its own trade deals.
8: The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade tariffs.
9 The UK will NOT be able to set its own trade quotas.
10: The UK loses control of its fishing rights
11: The UK loses control of its oil and gas rights
12: The UK loses control of its borders and enters the Schengen region by 2022 - as clearly laid down in the Lisbon treaty
13: The UK loses control of its planning legislation
14: The UK loses control of its armed forces including its nuclear deterrent
15: The UK loses full control of its taxation policy
16: The UK loses the ability to create its own laws and to implement them
17: The UK loses its standing in the Commonwealths
18: The UK loses control of any provinces or affiliated nations e.g.: Falklands, Cayman Islands, Gibraltar etc
19: The UK loses control of its judicial system
20: The UK loses control of its international policy
21: The UK loses full control of its national policy
22: The UK loses its right to call itself a nation in its own right.
23: The UK loses control of its space exploration program
24: The UK loses control of its Aviation and Sea lane jurisdiction
25: The UK loses its rebate in 2020 as laid down in the Lisbon treaty
26: The UK’s contribution to the EU is set to increase by an average of 1.2bn pa and by 2.3bn pa by 2020
This is the future that the youths of today think we stole from them?

They should be on their knees thanking us for saving them from being turned into Orwellian automatons!
Click to expand...


Seriously, you believe all that?
 
Jon Smith said:
Anything less than hard Brexit is treasonous.
Click to expand...

This would be treasonous: replace article 50 with a Treaty that removes the right of the UK electorate to chose if/when to leave EU. Ahem, and that is an intrinsic component of the May/Barnier/Juncker Withdrawl Agreement.

If they cannot negotiate in good faith, then it must be a clean/hard/WTO Brexit. Agreed.
 
The finishing line has never felt so close and yet so far away

There is a constant drip drip drip of seemingly spontaneous comments about how bad brexit will be - Most likely orchestrated by remain

I believe that the EU has never been in greater peril - for we only need to hold our nerve and the ‘project’ must fail

I might be wrong, but my reasons are

If the EU insist on no deal and close the Irish border and restrict UK trade with Ireland other EU Countries , their banking system will fail under an avalanche of bad debt

If they agree a deal after we leave, they will be trampled by the stampede of other countries for the exit door.

Either way – they lose.

I think they will elect for National survival and dump the project as the best of two (for them) evils

As far as the EU Religion is concerned, I’m reminded of this rather remarkable young woman from the 3rd C

Hypatia , Circa 380 – 415

‘’All formal dogmatic religions are fallacious, and must never be accepted by self respecting persons as final.’’

Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all

She was skinned alive for those beliefs
 
All empires fall. As do, eventually, all "Bund" or "League". How long the EU will last I don't know. But for the moment I think the UK is better out than in. But in a hundred years time I'm sure that the EU will be as obsolete as CENTO, SEATO, the Hanseatic League, the Famous Five and the Confederation of the Rhine. But now isn't the time to leave with a No Deal...we'd be better presently if we are to leave with a Norway EEA agreement.
 
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