CWD Distribution?

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Adam f

Adam f

Well-Known Member
I was just wondering why Chinese Water deer have not spread in a similar fashion to Muntjac? When Ive seen them in the fields of East Anglia the topography doesnt strike me as much different from many parts of the UK, and with them being prolific breeders, logic would suggest they should be more spread across the UK?

Interested in people's toughts who know more about these deer than I do?
 
Adam f said:
I was just wondering why Chinese Water deer have not spread in a similar fashion to Muntjac? When Ive seen them in the fields of East Anglia the topography doesnt strike me as much different from many parts of the UK, and with them being prolific breeders, logic would suggest they should be more spread across the UK?

Interested in people's toughts who know more about these deer than I do?
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I think I read somewhere that they're not very hardy.
Also, quite specific habitat preferences.
 
VSS said:
I think I read somewhere that they're not very hardy.
Also, quite specific habitat preferences.
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@VSS has got a valid point on them not being too hardy, I own a farm in the Aylesbury Vale area and we do come across a few that look to have die of natural causes in the winter, with no sign of poaching or dog attacks. Last winter was particularly bad for them.
 
rookyshot said:
@VSS has got a valid point on them not being too hardy, I own a farm in the Aylesbury Vale area and we do come across a few that look to have die of natural causes in the winter, with no sign of poaching or dog attacks. Last winter was particularly bad for them.
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You have a good point. I spend the summers in High Wycombe (working in Aylesbury), I've never seen one below Aylesbury but shoot a few just above Milton Keynes.
 
rookyshot said:
@VSS has got a valid point on them not being too hardy, I own a farm in the Aylesbury Vale area and we do come across a few that look to have die of natural causes in the winter, with no sign of poaching or dog attacks. Last winter was particularly bad for them.
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You are not far from me then!
With CWD, if they are in an area which suits them, then they thrive.
Around here is wet and boggy and the general population is very healthy and rising.
I don’t find too many just carking it, but then again I largely keep off my permissions in the off season.
They are spreading slowly (now across the M40 I believe) but not as widespread as munties.
Could be that cwd are actually a bit thick - munties are always on the move, living in brambles a thickets and are smaller, whereas the cwd just sit in the middle of fields sunning themselves. Their eyesight is also a bit naff, I believe, so they are easier to stalk than their oriental cousins.
 
TringSaint said:
You are not far from me then!
With CWD, if they are in an area which suits them, then they thrive.
Around here is wet and boggy and the general population is very healthy and rising.
I don’t find too many just carking it, but then again I largely keep off my permissions in the off season.
They are spreading slowly (now across the M40 I believe) but not as widespread as munties.
Could be that cwd are actually a bit thick - munties are always on the move, living in brambles a thickets and are smaller, whereas the cwd just sit in the middle of fields sunning themselves. Their eyesight is also a bit naff, I believe, so they are easier to stalk than their oriental cousins.
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Yep I think we're pretty close by. CWD population is getting bigger and bigger in the area but we're also seeing a steady increase in the Roe numbers and I even saw a couple of Fallow in the Brickhill area last year but they we're probably just escapees from Woburn.
 
TringSaint said:
They seem to stop at the grand Union canal by me (none in pitstone but they are in cheddington) an also the a41 seems to stop them.
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The large farm's between Cheddington and LB are holding quite a few CWD which you can see from the trainline, which also looks to be creating a bit of a barrier from them spreading across.
 
rookyshot said:
Yep I think we're pretty close by. CWD population is getting bigger and bigger in the area but we're also seeing a steady increase in the Roe numbers and I even saw a couple of Fallow in the Brickhill area last year but they we're probably just escapees from Woburn.
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Yes, roe are on the up. I don’t take many.
There was a possible sighting of fallow down near me, but it was by a horse rider so could have been roe, although the description they gave was fallow.
 
Water deer are not only far less robust than muntjac, but their winter coat hair damages easily making them more susceptible to a wet & cold British winter climate. Plus, larger litter sizes (averaging 3 fawns to the muntjac's one) means smaller fawns at birth so mortality can be high if there is bad weather for the first couple of weeks after birthing. On top of all that, water deer are especially prone to post-capture myopathy so transportation for (illegal) releases is far less likely to be successful. All of which adds up to their more limited success in the UK.
 
Charles S-J said:
Water deer are not only far less robust than muntjac, but their winter coat hair damages easily making them more susceptible to a wet & cold British winter climate. Plus, larger litter sizes (averaging 3 fawns to the muntjac's one) means smaller fawns at birth so mortality can be high if there is bad weather for the first couple of weeks after birthing. On top of all that, water deer are especially prone to post-capture myopathy so transportation for (illegal) releases is far less likely to be successful. All of which adds up to their more limited success in the UK.
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That being said, the numbers round here are just rising every year despite me and other stalkers hitting them hard.
I tropically see 2 followers per doe in late summer, so mortality isn’t that low - maybe it’s the mix of large contiguous blocks of land, minimal roads, thick hedges and isolated thickets that enables them to breed well.
Certainly they have access to good food (maize, Lucerne and silage hay) and the body conditions of the deer if shoot backs that up (I shot a doe this evening that was packed full of fat).
 
Before I was forced back to Bristol to serve the then Queen and Country, I used to live in Cambridgeshire, not far from St Ives and Huntingdon (and commuted frequently to close to Downham Market ;) . I left in 2009 when there were no CWD there - now my favourite farm at St Ives is overrun with them!

I agree about the habit conditions - where its suitable they will thrive. However, I should say that not that much further Northwards was Monks Wood, the old ecology research foundation and the density of muntjac there was mind-boggling. With the climate going the way it is, my personal bet is we'll see CWD continuing to spread North-Eastwards, but nowhere near as rapidly as muntjac.
 
About 25 years ago I used to shoot on a rough shoot not far from Aylesbury, I can’t remember exactly where but it was on the A413 a few miles north of Aylesbury. We had the occasional CWD on the ground even then as one of the guns used to take one or two a season. I know less about CWD than any other deer species but it strikes me that they are happiest in either fens or marshes or where there are large fields that they can sit out in. If this is true then it perhaps it explains the slow pace of expansion. I would treat the BDS distribution maps with caution as I’m sure that some reports, especially those a long way from other verified populations, are actually misidentified roe.

By the way, if we were still in the EU we would probably have just been instructed to eradicate CWD, muntjac, sika and probably even fallow from the UK. The Irish Republic has just received such an instruction which threatens many livelihoods and might actually prove to be impossible. Can you just imagine the effect on the UK given the same instructions?
 
paul k said:
About 25 years ago I used to shoot on a rough shoot not far from Aylesbury, I can’t remember exactly where but it was on the A413 a few miles north of Aylesbury. We had the occasional CWD on the ground even then as one of the guns used to take one or two a season. I know less about CWD than any other deer species but it strikes me that they are happiest in either fens or marshes or where there are large fields that they can sit out in. If this is true then it perhaps it explains the slow pace of expansion. I would treat the BDS distribution maps with caution as I’m sure that some reports, especially those a long way from other verified populations, are actually misidentified roe.

By the way, if we were still in the EU we would probably have just been instructed to eradicate CWD, muntjac, sika and probably even fallow from the UK. The Irish Republic has just received such an instruction which threatens many livelihoods and might actually prove to be impossible. Can you just imagine the effect on the UK given the same instructions?
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They love to sit in the middle of large fields, ruminating.
I often count multiple deer per field (sometimes as many at 7 or 8) just sitting there.
On a cold but sunny day you will find them in the bottom of hedges catching some rays and they will use woodland for cover but they prefer the open, well where I shoot thy do!!
 
paul k said:
.

By the way, if we were still in the EU we would probably have just been instructed to eradicate CWD, muntjac, sika and probably even fallow from the UK. The Irish Republic has just received such an instruction which threatens many livelihoods and might actually prove to be impossible. Can you just imagine the effect on the UK given the same instructions?
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I don't think we'd be asked to eradicate CWD, as the UK contains a significant proportion of the total world population, and they're endangered in their country of origin.

wytonpjs said:
Before I was forced back to Bristol to serve the then Queen and Country, I used to live in Cambridgeshire, not far from St Ives and Huntingdon (and commuted frequently to close to Downham Market ;) . I left in 2009 when there were no CWD there - now my favourite farm at St Ives is overrun with them!
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The land where I keep my sheep in Suffolk is fairly overrun with them.
 
rookyshot said:
Yep I think we're pretty close by. CWD population is getting bigger and bigger in the area but we're also seeing a steady increase in the Roe numbers and I even saw a couple of Fallow in the Brickhill area last year but they we're probably just escapees from Woburn.
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Loads of CWD off the A422 between MK and Bedford, seen a few Roe popping up here and there, but only ever seen one Fallow and it was on the edge of MK oddly enough.
 
paul k said:
About 25 years ago I used to shoot on a rough shoot not far from Aylesbury, I can’t remember exactly where but it was on the A413 a few miles north of Aylesbury. We had the occasional CWD on the ground even then as one of the guns used to take one or two a season. I know less about CWD than any other deer species but it strikes me that they are happiest in either fens or marshes or where there are large fields that they can sit out in. If this is true then it perhaps it explains the slow pace of expansion. I would treat the BDS distribution maps with caution as I’m sure that some reports, especially those a long way from other verified populations, are actually misidentified roe.

By the way, if we were still in the EU we would probably have just been instructed to eradicate CWD, muntjac, sika and probably even fallow from the UK. The Irish Republic has just received such an instruction which threatens many livelihoods and might actually prove to be impossible. Can you just imagine the effect on the UK given the same instructions?
Click to expand...
I beg to differ with your characterisation of the situation here in the RoI, there is no instruction to eradicate any deer. It is true to say that S.I. 374/2024 does now classify both Sika and Fallow as alien invasive species. They are still however enjoying the protections of the current "Open Seasons Order" the same as native Red. Only the Muntjac (which exist here in very isolated locations and tiny numbers are unprotected). I agree that eradicating either species will prove to be impossible, unless an enormous sum is spent on it. Which won't happen, as we're too busy spending our taxes on bogus asylum seekers and illegal migrants.
 
RescueMe0007 said:
I beg to differ with your characterisation of the situation here in the RoI, there is no instruction to eradicate any deer. It is true to say that S.I. 374/2024 does now classify both Sika and Fallow as alien invasive species. They are still however enjoying the protections of the current "Open Seasons Order" the same as native Red. Only the Muntjac (which exist here in very isolated locations and tiny numbers are unprotected). I agree that eradicating either species will prove to be impossible, unless an enormous sum is spent on it. Which won't happen, as we're too busy spending our taxes on bogus asylum seekers and illegal migrants.
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I stand corrected, but I was only repeating what was reported on the Fieldsports Britain channel news tonight.
 
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