MPs call for firearms rule change after Skye attack
An inquiry was launched after a series of firearms incidents in north west Scotland in August.
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£500 for your FAC !
- Thread starter Husky
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Andy seatrout
Well-Known Member
It is an interesting point to debate; there’s a lot of pressure on certificate holders and the police. I’ve commented in a recent article in the times about the Plymouth shootings- clear police failure; but why is that? Is it that the police need more funding to do a proper and efficient job?
We have lots of threads on speed of renewals and applications; but if the money we pay (£60 odd quid??) doesn’t cover the costs, is it any wonder the service is poor. Yes we’re all tax payers - but I for one would consider paying for the actual costs of application and a lesser cost of renewal…. But it must be the true costs - the £60 I paid my GP for their letter confirming I’m of sound mind is a complete rip-off as it’s not reflective of their time to verify or issue….
The benefit of a better funded system would be to minimise the chances of a Plymouth, Dunblane, Boot, hungerford, etc… but I’d prefer a separate organisation so it didn’t just get sucked up onto the machine with no accountability…..(e.g. my fishing licences sucked up by NRW which seems to find anti-angling, pro FEB policies)
We have lots of threads on speed of renewals and applications; but if the money we pay (£60 odd quid??) doesn’t cover the costs, is it any wonder the service is poor. Yes we’re all tax payers - but I for one would consider paying for the actual costs of application and a lesser cost of renewal…. But it must be the true costs - the £60 I paid my GP for their letter confirming I’m of sound mind is a complete rip-off as it’s not reflective of their time to verify or issue….
The benefit of a better funded system would be to minimise the chances of a Plymouth, Dunblane, Boot, hungerford, etc… but I’d prefer a separate organisation so it didn’t just get sucked up onto the machine with no accountability…..(e.g. my fishing licences sucked up by NRW which seems to find anti-angling, pro FEB policies)
Root and branch sort out of police licensing system first.
Although not wanting an increase in costs, if you look at English fishing rod licences... coarse and Trout up to 3 rods is £45 / year. £225 for 5 years. Salmon and sea Trout almost double that. Granted some of the income goes to waterway maintenance etc. However minimal admin and no background checks , land checks, etc. I expect for the majority of FAC holders (section 1 & 2) shooting is a "past time" like Angling. If it is your business, you just claim back increased costs from HMRC .
May be the same should apply to anybody who wants to be an MP full medical report, neighbours and past and present partners asked for a character reference etc after all their are rotten apples even among MPs.
The tax payer helps foot the bill due to the fact society at large benefits from the licensing process.
He said the recommendations made to the UK government could help protect public finances, streamline complicated legislation and increase mental health support for firearms licence holders.
Mr Wishart said: "It is unacceptable that the taxpayer should help foot the bill for every firearms application, and a two-tier system should be rolled out to largely address this.
"There is also no need for additional confusion to an already complicated area of legislation: rules governing shotguns and firearms should be aligned.
"All too often, the mental health of firearms licence holders is not being adequately assessed or addressed.
"Our governments should work together to consider whether the current system of 'GP flagging' is working as best as it can.
"A 'buddy system', perhaps within recreational shooting groups, should be rolled out where individuals can spot and report any concerns they may have with their buddy's mental health."
SNP MP for Ross, Skye and Lochaber Ian Blackford welcomed the recommendations.
Mr Blackford said the views of existing and former partners should be taken into account when considering whether to issue a gun license.
He added: "We collectively owe it to the public in Skye and elsewhere to reflect on gun licensing and put into effect appropriate enhancements to the licensing regime."
got an ex partner then you ain’t getting a gun licence.
The tax payer helps foot the bill due to the fact society at large benefits from the licensing process.
He said the recommendations made to the UK government could help protect public finances, streamline complicated legislation and increase mental health support for firearms licence holders.
Mr Wishart said: "It is unacceptable that the taxpayer should help foot the bill for every firearms application, and a two-tier system should be rolled out to largely address this.
"There is also no need for additional confusion to an already complicated area of legislation: rules governing shotguns and firearms should be aligned.
"All too often, the mental health of firearms licence holders is not being adequately assessed or addressed.
"Our governments should work together to consider whether the current system of 'GP flagging' is working as best as it can.
"A 'buddy system', perhaps within recreational shooting groups, should be rolled out where individuals can spot and report any concerns they may have with their buddy's mental health."
SNP MP for Ross, Skye and Lochaber Ian Blackford welcomed the recommendations.
Mr Blackford said the views of existing and former partners should be taken into account when considering whether to issue a gun license.
He added: "We collectively owe it to the public in Skye and elsewhere to reflect on gun licensing and put into effect appropriate enhancements to the licensing regime."
got an ex partner then you ain’t getting a gun licence.
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but businesses have to pass them costs on to their customers, £500 for a personal licence what would a RFD licence then be?
plus section 2 shoguns treated like section 1 rifles, you would need to justify each and every one and get a verification to change one. RFD are struggling now due to the time they take to complete verifications, their would be many more if shotguns were treated like rifles, so without massive increase in police resources we would see no improvement in time scales to issue, renew or verifications, they would then say underfunded £1000 fee please.
Typical OTT response by MPs who must be seen to be doing something, punish all for the actions of a very very few.
I completely agree with Andy Seatrout, but I’d go further. I would outsource it to a private operator held accountable to the Home Office and an independent Inspectorate and then engineer an efficient and effective IT process that linked all the stakeholders - Police-force areas, pest controllers, game keepers/game managers, shooters, gun shops, grounds and clubs, landowners, game dealers, with a database and useable forms and reporting, variation and enquiry processes. If the cost of an accountable and effective service was a granulated c.£500, but it worked, then many of us would pay and it could be a business expense for those that need it. The gun trade would grow, countryside management might improve, police resources would be diverted to where they are needed, there are benefits all round. Just needs the shooting organisations or others, to have a bit of vision and influence and stop fiddling around contemplating navels and whinging about it. So, when can I start?
Reloader708
Well-Known Member
Complete waste of time as its only a recommendation, thankfully Westminster still has hold of firearms licencing.
I do find it sickening how they keep taking a stab at shooting sports claiming public safety etc, I'd rather they just made their real intentions clear!
Also, I thought Blackford was from a rural seat and an ex crofter, why is he so keen on more regulation, I thought a man like that wouldn't be against putting some venison in the freezer or bagging a few ducks!?
I do find it sickening how they keep taking a stab at shooting sports claiming public safety etc, I'd rather they just made their real intentions clear!
Also, I thought Blackford was from a rural seat and an ex crofter, why is he so keen on more regulation, I thought a man like that wouldn't be against putting some venison in the freezer or bagging a few ducks!?
careful for what you wish for, private operators are private businesses in it to make money.
The licensing system has been underfunded for many many years and remember they do a lot of work not directly funded by what we as certificate holder pay them for, who would fund that?
Business expenses are not funded by money growing on trees they come straight from the business bottom line and will be passed on to the customer otherwise the business is not in business for very long.
The system needs a massive update of IT technology and efficiency savings, like removing sound mods from FAC however it has always been a them and us and about control and I cannot see them letting go of that, they probably do not want to see the gun trade grow anyway and with current increases in ammunition, cartridges, guns etc it will probably decline.
Because he is a career MP and still want to further his own career at anybody else’s expense.
Then Crapita would grt it and we would have longer variation times....
Everything they touch folds.
You raise some valid points and I’m sure there are many more, but I guess my argument is to have the debate include all the stakeholders and get to something that works - where we are now just doesn’t. And I don’t blame anyone in particular and definitely not the Firearms Units or civil service that just do what there’re asked to. My point about business expenses is that for some shooting is a livelihood and not a pastime, so the cost could be applied proportionately. To what I don’t know, but I’m up for having a go at working it out.
Finally, if we want it for cheap or for free we should be prepared to volunteer to help make it work. Tin hat, at the ready…
It would all come down to funding, government funding and that would be very difficult to get, take GP medical records general opinion is that they are all digital but speak to NHS digital and they will tell you yes their was a government initiative to transfer all paper records to digital, but the government never funded it, each GP practice may or may not have decided to do so at their own cost, or leave the historic records on paper, going digital only for new consultation going forward.
Malxwal
Well-Known Member
A two tier system would be the start for the Peoples Republic..very soon the recreational tier wold cease to exist.Muddies the waters if they want a 'two-tier' system for recreational users vs. work related use.
Does everyone become a 'contractor/deer manager/warden' overnight?
NoIDeer
Well-Known Member
In these days of computers and information technology it should take seconds to assess any person's fitness to possess and use firearms. All the micro management with variations and 141's... needs rethinking. £65 for a coterminous renewal and a few quid more for a grant is about right.
It seems there is usually a failure to act by the authorities implicated in most firearms atrocities.
It seems there is usually a failure to act by the authorities implicated in most firearms atrocities.
Dave Lakes
Well-Known Member
If the current cost doesn’t cover the actual admin, it’s probably because of the insistence on utterly pointless processes like 1 for 1 variations, land clearance, moderators, etc, through some misguided belief that these have any impact on safety. Just make it the same rules as SGC.
I’m afraid I don’t buy the fishing license argument. If I had to apply every time I wanted to change a 5 weight rod to a 4/5 weight rod, get someone to allow me to fish a new beat, or swap ledger tips, then the rod licence wouldn’t seem such good value anymore. It’s not even as if any of the FAC fee goes toward habitat creation, anti-poaching, or positive PR, like it does with a rod licence.
I’m afraid I don’t buy the fishing license argument. If I had to apply every time I wanted to change a 5 weight rod to a 4/5 weight rod, get someone to allow me to fish a new beat, or swap ledger tips, then the rod licence wouldn’t seem such good value anymore. It’s not even as if any of the FAC fee goes toward habitat creation, anti-poaching, or positive PR, like it does with a rod licence.
we live in a country with probably the strictest firearm laws in the world, thank god we have statistically a very tiny incident of criminal miss use of firearms by firearms certificate holders. Trying to reduce the very tiny number of incidents to zero is like any scientist will tell you like trying to get to absolute zero in temperature, impossible, the closer you get the harder it gets to go lower.
Other than a total ban of all ownership of firearms the risk however small will always remain regardless of the process used to issue firearms certificates, what we need is a government that recognises that, but the chance of that is like winning the lotto.
Other than a total ban of all ownership of firearms the risk however small will always remain regardless of the process used to issue firearms certificates, what we need is a government that recognises that, but the chance of that is like winning the lotto.
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