17 hornet

[mealiejimmy]

Yes, a 17 HMR bullet can kill a fox and a 22-250 bullet hit a fox and not kill it
The issue is probability and the probability of a clean kill with a 17 HMR (or 17 Hornet) is significantly lower than with a 22-250.

Cheers

Bruce

 

[Smellydog]

Yes, a 17 HMR bullet can kill a fox and a 22-250 bullet hit a fox and not kill it
The issue is probability and the probability of a clean kill with a 17 HMR (or 17 Hornet) is significantly lower than with a 22-250.

Cheers

Bruce

I would have to see the stats, that probably don't exist, probably because no meaningful conclusion could be gathered.
I guess we all have our own opinion on this kind of thing.....

 

[mealiejimmy]

I agree that there are almost certainly no stats for this, but I don't think stats are needed - just a bit of common sense
At a range of 100 yards, a 17 or 20g bullet from an HMR has an energy of around 140 ftlbs
At a range of 100 yards, a 50g bullet from a 22-250 has an energy of around 1250 ftlbs
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that a fox being hit with 1250 ftlbs of energy is more likely to die than being hit with 140ftlbs of energy - irrespective of where the animal is hit
That huge difference in energy is what improves the probability of a kill with a 22-250 over a 17HMR.

Cheers

Bruce

 

[Smellydog]

I agree that there are almost certainly no stats for this, but I don't think stats are needed - just a bit of common sense
At a range of 100 yards, a 17 or 20g bullet from an HMR has an energy of around 140 ftlbs
At a range of 100 yards, a 50g bullet from a 22-250 has an energy of around 1250 ftlbs
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure out that a fox being hit with 1250 ftlbs of energy is more likely to die than being hit with 140ftlbs of energy - irrespective of where the animal is hit
That huge difference in energy is what improves the probability of a kill with a 22-250 over a 17HMR.

Cheers

Bruce

No sir, I disagree. All that energy will only want to destroy the bullet very quickly. You do not get a linear increase in effectiveness per rise in energy.
It is a common mistake to solely look at ft/lbs. Folly even.
I've lost count of how many shallow wounds I've seen from super fast 22's with to fragile a bullet loaded. Despite a high value from a mathematical equation that does not relate to anything ballistics.

 

[mealiejimmy]

As Scotty was prone to say in Star Trek - "ye cannae change the laws o physics"
It's the amount of energy that's transferred into the target from the bullet that does the damage and the higher the energy available at the point of impact, the more will be transferred to the target
Assuming all the 140ftlbs energy from a 17 HMR bullet is transferred to the target (unlikely) and only 20% of the 1250 ftlbs from the 22-250 bullet (more likely then the 22-250 is still dumping almost twice as much energy into the target and is therefore more likely to kill it

Cheers

Bruce

 

[soulboy1957]

The thread is abt. 17 hornet with 550 ft lbs, where did hmr comparisonscome from?

 

[Liveonce]

but dead is dead, be that with a .17 or a 50cal.

 

[Smellydog]

As Scotty was prone to say in Star Trek - "ye cannae change the laws o physics"
It's the amount of energy that's transferred into the target from the bullet that does the damage and the higher the energy available at the point of impact, the more will be transferred to the target
Assuming all the 140ftlbs energy from a 17 HMR bullet is transferred to the target (unlikely) and only 20% of the 1250 ftlbs from the 22-250 bullet (more likely then the 22-250 is still dumping almost twice as much energy into the target and is therefore more likely to kill it

Cheers

Bruce

No one is trying to change physics here buddy.
It's just a different view.
It is not the energy that kills the critter. The critter does via a drastic drop in blood pressure or via a disruption to the central nervous system resulting in asphyxiation and or cardiac arrest.

Anything moving has kinetic energy. More is not better and less is not worse. Enough is enough and anymore is simply wasted energy.

For example electric kettles years ago took a lot longer than a modern one. Just because the new ones boil water quicker the out come is just the same.

I think you will find that the original concept for all the super fast 22's was not to increase energy and killing supremacy. You will find it was to boost range and wind cheating ability.
Flip it on its head. Ever wonder while a little 22 rimfire penetrates so well? Easy, the equal and opposite force acting on it is less.
So a faster bullet with by default higher kinetic values also has much more higher forces acting against it. Add water as it is present in flesh, water that does not like compressing you soon arrive at a point where upon the bullet may as well be hitting concrete!

Energy is meaningless if you have little or no control over it. It is not linear. Dead is dead, there is no deader than dead. There is only ever wounding if it is not dead.
That my friend is not decided by a ft/lb value.

 

[Smellydog]

The thread is abt. 17 hornet with 550 ft lbs, where did hmr comparisonscome from?

Me.

 

[Overlay]

 

[gixer1]

Try shooting a stag with a 17 HMR and then with a 22-250 and tell me how each goes….

(Don’t really - but you get the point!)

 

[Smellydog]

Try shooting a stag with a 17 HMR and then with a 22-250 and tell me how each goes….

(Don’t really - but you get the point!)

The context of the conversation was fox's bud.
In saying that if a bet was going as to whether a large deer has been slain via a HMR or not my money would be on has!

If legal in Britain to shoot a large deer with a .224" rifle I would choose a 223 and 1:10" twist or faster instead of a 1:14" 22-250.

 

[gixer1]

The context of the conversation was fox's bud.
In saying that if a bet was going as to whether a large deer has been slain via a HMR or not my money would be on has!

If legal in Britain to shoot a large deer with a .224" rifle I would choose a 223 and 1:10" twist or faster instead of a 1:14" 22-250.

I understand the original context - having shot foxes with 17 HMR I would not elect to use it again. It just doesn’t hit hard enough at ranges over 100 yards for me.

If correctly placed with a CF it wallops them and leave a significant wound, an HMR doesn’t hit them anywhere near as hard from what I’ve seen and from the rounds energy, and the wound is no where near as significant.

 

[Smellydog]

I understand the original context - having shot foxes with 17 HMR I would not elect to use it again. It just doesn’t hit hard enough at ranges over 100 yards for me.

If correctly placed with a CF it wallops them and leave a significant wound, an HMR doesn’t hit them anywhere near as hard from what I’ve seen and from the rounds energy, and the wound is no where near as significant.

Yes, whallop and hits harder is true but dead is dead whether one uses a tiny hammer or a sledgehammer.
Around 100yds HMR kills them just the same. Get it wrong and it won't. Get it wrong with a big whalloper and it won't also.

 

[Bo Diddley]

I find Grey areas in life are a pain in the butt!

 

[gixer1]

Yes, whallop and hits harder is true but dead is dead whether one uses a tiny hammer or a sledgehammer.
Around 100yds HMR kills them just the same. Get it wrong and it won't. Get it wrong with a big whalloper and it won't also.

The margin for error with a big walloper is much, much larger.

 

[Smellydog]

The margin for error with a big walloper is much, much larger.

Certainly larger, not so sure on the much much part of your comment.

I just seen so many expectations crumble before operators eyes.
I've seen success and failure from large and small that I just no longer assume anything regarding cartridge verses cartridge.

22.

308.

Dead is dead.
Ironically the first photo involves a fox that was wounded the night before by a 22-250! Lol, no fault of the cartridge. It was a near 200yd shot at night and the fox just moved on firing. The bullet just touched it's rear lower leg. We could tell how it ran off it was in trauma.
The next day I scouted the whole area for it and bumped into a live fox reluctant to move and my 9422 killed it. Only about 40yds.
On inspection of the leg the achilles tendon was inflamed with what looked like a cut in the skin.
I deduced it was my friends bullet from his 22-250.
So for my arguments sake the 22-250 with all its margin for error needed the little 22 to bail it out!

 

[Longstrider]

Yes a bigger bullet can hit but not kill, just as a smaller can do the job fine, BUT work out the percentages and you'll soon see that hitting something with a suitably bigger bullet produces far fewer runners. The key word that got me in Nicks post was hidden in this sentence ... ",he’s a descent shot but I often get the !! Can you bring ya terrier,I’ve got a runner or I’ve shot two but not picked them" Do you see it now I've highlighted it ? This obviously isn't a one-off or even a rarely re-occuring incident. It's happening OFTEN.
To infer that those who would baulk at using what they consider to be an insufficiently powerfully hitting calibre for any species is because they doubt they can shoot well enough is ridiculous.
In my far-distant youth I cleanly killed a big dog fox with a .22 air rifle pellet from an HW80. It can be done .. but would you advocate it ?

 

[Smellydog]

It's happening OFTEN.

I have only read here one account of someone referring to someone they know often having to help them find a fox in association with using 17 Hornet.
I have not heard others say a similar thing except my account involving a different calibre.
From a personal standpoint. I have lost one fox to a HMR. It was my fault.
I did once need a dog to find a fox shot with a 22. I have seen others lost to 22's and CF 22's.

I spent three years in close association with a 17 Remington and never lost a fox. In those three years we both shot over 300foxs. I was using a 222 at the time.

 

[Nick703]

have you ever seen a fox shot in the chest with 17h or hmr through a good quality thermal,Accolade pro or helion pro and then watch one shot at similar distance with a 250 or 243,dead is dead but with the larger cf there very dead !! Or missing a large portion of there chest and very unlikely to be able to move