.204

New Avon Arms
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Greener Jim said:
Cowsmart, as you know I never doubted the legality of it even if I don't approve simply due to my own biases, however I called BASC as nobody else seems to be doing so. Came back with what you and I think "there is no minimum calibre, just so long as you adhear to the weight/velocity/energy criteria", the gentleman also agreed that HO Guidelines are just that and aren't law, the deer act is the only relevant legislation.
As I said, I don't think it's a smart way forward but plan for the worst (your cocker may need working), get a 50gr bullet, crack on and let us know how it goes whether good or bad.



Would be a great muntjac rifle. If I can get my 14" 357 over 1000 ft-lbs I'll use it on muntjac.
Click to expand...

Thankyou..one of the few that understood if not agree....
 
shakey jake said:
Post count is now 223 is that a sign?
Click to expand...

would never swap my .222 for a .223...honestly my old BSA shoots sub MOA with factory federal powershok 50gr.....It has a £85 fox firearms (Second hand) scope sat on it......Love that gun....my custom (recent purchase) .22-250 has a blue printed remmy 700 action, Timney calvin trigger, fluted 1:9 twist bergara barrel with a boydes thumbhole stock and jetZ copact mod, stuck a leupold VX3 on it for now but have a nightforce Mil spec 8-32x56 in the pipeline....then my old and trusty rusty A-bolt in .270 meopta scope and pred mod....will have to grovel at the shooting permission officers feet for the .204 lol
 
cowsmart said:
would never swap my .222 for a .223...honestly my old BSA shoots sub MOA with factory federal powershok 50gr.....It has a £85 fox firearms (Second hand) scope sat on it......Love that gun....my custom (recent purchase) .22-250 has a blue printed remmy 700 action, Timney calvin trigger, fluted 1:9 twist bergara barrel with a boydes thumbhole stock and jetZ copact mod, stuck a leupold VX3 on it for now but have a nightforce Mil spec 8-32x56 in the pipeline....then my old and trusty rusty A-bolt in .270 meopta scope and pred mod....will have to grovel at the shooting permission officers feet for the .204 lol
Click to expand...

nothing like delivering the fatal blow with quality kit!
 
landkeeper said:
so .204 upsets a lot of folk whereas .224 is perfectly acceptable!! splitting hairs springs to mind
Click to expand...

21% greater frontal area - similar to the difference between 243 and 270. Got to draw the line somewhere on minimum calibre, even if not done in Scottish law.
 
.204

thinking of getting one for use on roe, anyone had any luck sourcing a 50gr soft point? Obviously this will be in scotland..cheers Lee
 
I'm not sure this is a good idea.

I have no experience with .204, but have shot roe with .222 and have seen it done with .223.

It works, and fairly reliably - but gets rapidly less reliable with the faster loads, which usually blow up on the surface, making a horrible wound and allowing them to run.

I could see .204 working as a head and neck only round, but would really strongly advise against chest shots.
 
simonl said:
21% greater frontal area - similar to the difference between 243 and 270. Got to draw the line somewhere on minimum calibre, even if not done in Scottish law.
Click to expand...

Personally I’ve never seen the point of a .204 over any of the .22CF’s which have their own limitations. Looking at the facts the .204 is a barrel-burner, and is over the MV limit for civilian ranges including my club. Like the parent .222 Mag it has the performance on paper to be legal for Roe in Scotland, but as a squirrel & gopher calibre may not have the tools to do the job on larger game.

Whether the ammunition is suitable is a serious doubt & worth raising. We’re told by the OP that it hasn’t been used on Roe, so there is no data yet on the terminal performance of .204 bullets, which is required under Scottish Law. The .22CF Cals have been used for decades in the field so there is plenty of experience with these to draw on.



The answer given by Police Scotland is straight from the H.O.G but doesn’t fully comply with it:-

Scotland​
13.34 The legislative requirements for the shooting of deer in Scotland are based on the performance of the ammunition, not the calibre of the rifle. Ammunition must be “designed to deform in a predictable manner”. Article 3 of the Deer (Firearms etc.) (Scotland) Order 1985 makes different provisions for the shooting of Roe deer in Scotland. A calibre is not stipulated but the bullet weight must be not less than 50 grains, the muzzle velocity not less than 2,450 feet per second and the muzzle energy of more than 1,000 foot pounds. In practical terms, this means a calibre of .222 or greater, rather than the .240 or greater for shooting Roe deer required in England and Wales

[FONT=&quot]Quarry Shooting [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Note that the absence of a calibre in the table below [/FONT][FONT=&quot]should not [/FONT][FONT=&quot]preclude it being considered by the Police. The purpose of this table is as a guide to establish initial “good reason”. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Paragraphs 13.9 and 13.16-13.18 should be read in conjunction with this table. [/FONT]

[TABLE="class: MsoNormalTable"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 110"] [FONT=&quot]Cartridges [/FONT]
[/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] [FONT=&quot]Muzzle energy (ft lb) [/FONT]
[/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] [FONT=&quot]Vermin & ground game and other small quarry[/FONT]3 [FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] [FONT=&quot]Fox and other medium quarry[/FONT]4 [FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] [FONT=&quot]Deer and other large quarry[/FONT]5 [FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] [FONT=&quot]Dangerous Game[/FONT]6 [FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 110"] [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot].177-.25 Air Rifles (FAC)[/FONT][FONT=&quot]1 [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot].22 RF [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot].17 Mach 2 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot].17 HMR [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot].22 WMR [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot].17 Remington[/FONT][FONT=&quot]2 [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot].22 Hornet[/FONT][FONT=&quot]2 [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot].204 [/FONT]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]>12 ft lb [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]100-200 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]650-700 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]800-900 [/FONT]
[/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Yes [/FONT]
[/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]No [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](Yes for .17 Remington & HMR, .22 Hornet and WMR – also .22 RF in certain circumstance (see 13.25)) [/FONT]

[/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]No [/FONT]
[/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]No [/FONT]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 110"] [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot].[/FONT][FONT=&quot]17 Remington2 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot].218 Bee [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot].22 Hornet2 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot].22-.250 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot].220 Swift [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot].222 Remington [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5.56mm/.223 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot].243 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6mm PPC [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6mm/.244[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]800-900 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]600-800 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]650-700 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1,350-1,500 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1,300-1,900 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]900-1,000 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1,000-1,400 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1,600-2,000 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1,300-1,800 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1,800-2,100 [/FONT]
[/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]No [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](Yes for .17 Remington & HMR, .22 Hornet and WMR) [/FONT]
[/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Yes [/FONT]
[/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] [FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]No7 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](Yes for Muntjac and Chinese water deer in England and Wales with .222 and greater, .243 & 6mm/.244) [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Yes in Scotland for Roe Deer with .222 and greater.) [/FONT]
[/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] [FONT=&quot]No [/FONT]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
Sinistral said:
Personally I’ve never seen the point of a .204 over any of the .22CF’s which have their own limitations. Looking at the facts the .204 is a barrel-burner, and is over the MV limit for civilian ranges including my club. Like the parent .222 Mag it has the performance on paper to be legal for Roe in Scotland, but as a squirrel & gopher calibre may not have the tools to do the job on larger game.

Whether the ammunition is suitable is a serious doubt & worth raising. We’re told by the OP that it hasn’t been used on Roe, so there is no data yet on the terminal performance of .204 bullets, which is required under Scottish Law. The .22CF Cals have been used for decades in the field so there is plenty of experience with these to draw on.



The answer given by Police Scotland is straight from the H.O.G but doesn’t fully comply with it:-

Scotland​
13.34 The legislative requirements for the shooting of deer in Scotland are based on the performance of the ammunition, not the calibre of the rifle. Ammunition must be “designed to deform in a predictable manner”. Article 3 of the Deer (Firearms etc.) (Scotland) Order 1985 makes different provisions for the shooting of Roe deer in Scotland. A calibre is not stipulated but the bullet weight must be not less than 50 grains, the muzzle velocity not less than 2,450 feet per second and the muzzle energy of more than 1,000 foot pounds. In practical terms, this means a calibre of .222 or greater, rather than the .240 or greater for shooting Roe deer required in England and Wales

[FONT=&amp]Quarry Shooting [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]Note that the absence of a calibre in the table below [/FONT][FONT=&amp]should not [/FONT][FONT=&amp]preclude it being considered by the Police. The purpose of this table is as a guide to establish initial “good reason”. [/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]Paragraphs 13.9 and 13.16-13.18 should be read in conjunction with this table. [/FONT]

[TABLE="class: MsoNormalTable"]
[TR]
[TD] [FONT=&amp]Cartridges [/FONT][/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] [FONT=&amp]Muzzle energy (ft lb) [/FONT][/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] [FONT=&amp]Vermin & ground game and other small quarry[/FONT]3 [/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] [FONT=&amp]Fox and other medium quarry[/FONT]4 [/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] [FONT=&amp]Deer and other large quarry[/FONT]5 [/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] [FONT=&amp]Dangerous Game[/FONT]6 [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 110"] [FONT=&amp].177-.25 Air Rifles (FAC)[/FONT][FONT=&amp]1 [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp].22 RF [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp].17 Mach 2 [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp].17 HMR [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp].22 WMR [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp].17 Remington[/FONT][FONT=&amp]2 [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp].22 Hornet[/FONT][FONT=&amp]2 [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp].204 [/FONT]
[/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] [FONT=&amp]>12 ft lb [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]100-200 [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]650-700 [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]800-900 [/FONT][/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] [FONT=&amp]Yes [/FONT][/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] [FONT=&amp]No [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp](Yes for .17 Remington & HMR, .22 Hornet and WMR – also .22 RF in certain circumstance (see 13.25)) [/FONT]
[/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] [FONT=&amp]No [/FONT][/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] [FONT=&amp]No [/FONT][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 110"] [FONT=&amp].[/FONT][FONT=&amp]17 Remington2 [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp].218 Bee [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp].22 Hornet2 [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp].22-.250 [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp].220 Swift [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp].222 Remington [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]5.56mm/.223 [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp].243 [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]6mm PPC [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]6mm/.244[/FONT][/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] [FONT=&amp]800-900 [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]600-800 [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]650-700 [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]1,350-1,500 [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]1,300-1,900 [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]900-1,000 [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]1,000-1,400 [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]1,600-2,000 [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]1,300-1,800 [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]1,800-2,100 [/FONT][/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] [FONT=&amp]No [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp](Yes for .17 Remington & HMR, .22 Hornet and WMR) [/FONT][/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] [FONT=&amp]Yes [/FONT][/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] [FONT=&amp]No7 [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp](Yes for Muntjac and Chinese water deer in England and Wales with .222 and greater, .243 & 6mm/.244) [/FONT]
[FONT=&amp]Yes in Scotland for Roe Deer with .222 and greater.) [/FONT][/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] [FONT=&amp]No [/FONT][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Click to expand...

This has been covered time and time again...

No where have I said it has not been used on Roe, contrary to this point I know someone that has used it on roe, successfully.

The ammo must be 'designed to', Proof is not required.

Quarry Shooting
Note that the absence of a calibre in the table below should not preclude it being considered by the Police. The purpose of this table is as a guide to establish initial “good reason”.

This guide was written in 1985..19 years before the .204 was invented.



The .204 is recognised as a roe deer legal calibre by police scotland.
 
straightpull6547 said:
Its kind of like making love to a woman, you can do it with a small cock, but a big cock will do a better job..
Click to expand...

Guess you never get any complaints.

On a more serious note, some advice.....

Threatening to ring someones firearms office to report them on a shooting forum will not get you any admiration or respect in fact quite the opposite...

you can take this advice or tell me to $%&* off...thats your prerogative...
 
According to these guidelines 204 is approved for Vermin but not for Fox

[TABLE="class: MsoNormalTable"]
[TR]
[TD] Cartridges
[/TD]
[TD] Muzzle energy (ft lb)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] Vermin & ground game and other small quarry3
[/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] Fox and other medium quarry4
[/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] Deer and other large quarry5
[/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] Dangerous Game6
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 110"] .177-.25 Air Rifles (FAC)1
.22 RF
.17 Mach 2
.17 HMR
.22 WMR
.17 Remington2
.22 Hornet2
.204

[/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] >12 ft lb
100-200
650-700
800-900
[/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] Yes
[/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] No
(Yes for .17 Remington & HMR, .22 Hornet and WMR – also .22 RF in certain circumstance (see 13.25))

[/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] No
[/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] No
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 110"] .17 Remington2
.218 Bee
.22 Hornet2
.22-.250
.220 Swift
.222 Remington
5.56mm/.223
.243
6mm PPC
6mm/.244
[/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] 800-900
600-800
650-700
1,350-1,500
1,300-1,900
900-1,000
1,000-1,400
1,600-2,000
1,300-1,800
1,800-2,100
[/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] No
(Yes for .17 Remington & HMR, .22 Hornet and WMR)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] Yes
[/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] No7
(Yes for Muntjac and Chinese water deer in England and Wales with .222 and greater, .243 & 6mm/.244)
Yes in Scotland for Roe Deer with .222 and greater.)
[/TD]
[TD="width: 110"] No
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
 
cowsmart said:
Guess you never get any complaints.

On a more serious note, some advice.....

Threatening to ring someones firearms office to report them on a shooting forum will not get you any admiration or respect in fact quite the opposite...

you can take this advice or tell me to $%&* off...thats your prerogative...
Click to expand...


$%&* off

it is not, and has not been, approved for roe
 
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