243 still viable?

[Tim.243]

How long have you been shooting deer and how many deer and different species have you shot with a .243?

Sounds like you are relying on a lot of secondhand opinion and experience. .243 with a heavier bullet will kill anything in this country if the bullet is out in the right place.

A 105/107 gr .243 bullet will keep up with a .264 140/143 gr bullet in terms of trajectory, why do you think the 6 mm creedmoor is becoming so popular?

Even a 75 gr .243 bullet at 3400 fps will kill everything as well, it will just be more messy than a 100 gr punching through. Bullets below 75 grains are going to be designed to blow up very quickly so have no business being shot at deer in the first place.

Part of the appeal of .243 is it’s good for people who are recoil shy, it is not a punchy calibre by any stretch of the imagination.

@Siggy

As I mentioned abt the M/S plate, an old fox target @ 200 yds
10mm over the plain dur bar ( not the thin fur of a red /fallow)
95gn .243

Every one who comes to the house and sees it says ###k me

@paul o'

@SA shooter

 

[User00033]

Suffice to say, it looks like the minimum was set at an appropriate level in the legislation.

The legal minimum here for deer species on public land is .222.

Our smallest deer species is fallow. No fanged poodle sized deer here. The overwhelming majority of deer across the country are reds, which on average are as big or bigger than your Lowland variety.

The cartridge shooting by far the largest proportion of deer per annum is the .223 Remington. And 95%+ of those will be large reds.

Our forum has an ongoing thread on shooting deer with the .223 Remington that has nearly reached 500 posts. It started off as a question, then the usual armchairs said their bit, then those that are out there shooting deer regularly started posting photos with detailed analysis of wound channels, shot placement, bullet construction, weight, etc. The thread is full of the kind of information we seek in order to understand how to maximise terminal ballistics for this class of game, it has entirely shutdown the naysayers, and very clearly demonstrated just how lethal the 5.56mm is on medium game when setup correctly.

It is notable that many of the guys using .223 Rem for red deer are using traditional 55gr softpoints. Either their own reloads, or the factory ammo made by Belmont, our only domestic manufacturer. (Belmont uses once fired military range brass, their own powder blend and the classic 55gr Hornady softpoint that you buy by the 500.) Then there are the fast twist options and a variety of examples with some of our locally made bullets (Targex), TMKs, ELD-Ms, Barnes, GameKings, all sorts.

I mostly use 70gr Speer semi-points, but I also have a stash of the now discontinued 64gr Nosler “protected point” tactical type bonded bullets designed to shoot through walls to get to the bad guy. They are very, very effective on big red deer and will easily shoot through both shoulders of a rutting stag and leave a trail of carnage between them.

But… rules are rules. The Germans managed to convince themselves they need a 6.5mm to shoot a deer. It is what it is. They also like shooting at animals running at high speed, they’re happy to do that all day long! There’s no logic to it, really.

 

[Heym SR20]

Do FEO’s really think that? I refuse to believe that they fail to recognise that if your so-called “Beginner” negligently discharges a round or fails to ensure a safe backstop that, all things being equal, the outcome will be of life preserving difference if the projectile is 6mm rather than 6.5mm.

K

Yes - and I have had it said to me on more than one occasion. Not that long ago Fife constabulary would allow .222 and .223 for use on Roe in Fife as anything else was far more dangerous.

They also look at muzzle energy etc and think there is a huge difference between 1,000 ft lbs and 4,000 ft lbs. There is, but I am not sure any sentient being hit by either will know the difference.

I think the powers that be still have a deep seated view on high velocity rifles that dates to the start of the last century and early firearms licencing. They were not far removed from muzzle loading black powder rifles as the main equipment of the military, and then in the 1890’s along come magazine rifles such as the Lee Enfield, Mauser and suddenly the ability to hit man sized objects at many hundreds of yards was well within the capabilities of the average infantry man, rather than a specialist target shooter. And we were in a time of revolution with a new world order.

That institutional memory in the likes of the Police and Home Office will still exist.

 

[Smellydog]

I can only imagine how many British deer of all sizes fell to a hornet or even the 30 sherwood.

Ft/lbs is a mathematical equation and has no real bearing of the performance of a projectile!
It, the equation only has a real value in understanding torque.
If it equated to anything ballistic if you shot a bullet of 1000lbft value into a 1000lb target it would move exactly 1' in the opposite direction.

Even calling it an energy value is wrong!

 

[User00040]

I can only imagine how many British deer of all sizes fell to a hornet or even the 30 sherwood.

Ft/lbs is a mathematical equation and has no real bearing of the performance of a projectile!
It, the equation only has a real value in understanding torque.
If it equated to anything ballistic if you shot a bullet of 1000lbft value into a 1000lb target it would move exactly 1' in the opposite direction.

Even calling it an energy value is wrong!

Hard to think how many animals have fallen to the spear, stone and sling yet the .243 is considered inadequate

World record bear in 1953 taken by Bella Twin with a .22 Short...

 

[ChesterP]

Don't disagree with you, half the stuff that comes out of my mouth is complete bollocks! - but, .243 is the smallest deer legal calibre for (all) deer species in the UK, therefore it is by definition, marginal...no deer ever complained of being shot with too much bullet.

You can shoot Muntjac or Chinese Water Deer using the following (direct extract from the Firearms Act):

For muntjac and Chinese water deer only, a rifle with a minimum calibre of not less than . 220" and muzzle energy of not less than 1,000 ft/lb and a bullet weight of not less than 50gr may be used.

It's perfectly legal to use a .222 or a .223 providing that the projectile is at least 50 grains and that the muzzle energy is at least 1000ft/lbs.

It is only for the larger species that the minimum calibre is .240" and minimum muzzle energy must be 1,700 ft/lbs. (ie all other deer)

 

[Dan Newcombe]

You can shoot Muntjac or Chinese Water Deer using the following (direct extract from the Firearms Act):

For muntjac and Chinese water deer only, a rifle with a minimum calibre of not less than . 220" and muzzle energy of not less than 1,000 ft/lb and a bullet weight of not less than 50gr may be used.

It's perfectly legal to use a .222 or a .223 providing that the projectile is at least 50 grains and that the muzzle energy is at least 1000ft/lbs.

It is only for the larger species that the minimum calibre is .240" and minimum muzzle energy must be 1,700 ft/lbs. (ie all other deer)

And for roe in Scotland - which they do with aplomb.

Too much hearsay and worry about these things

 

[Acm]

I didn’t know the .243 was ever viable.
Every day is a school day!

 

[ChesterP]

And for roe in Scotland - which they do with aplomb.

Too much hearsay and worry about these things

Agreed. Why we cannot shoot Roe using a .223 we'll never know. Some beaurocrat sitting reading too many energy tables and doing non sensical calculations. If it's good enough for Scotland and other parts of the world based on the evidence of humane kills, one would think that the authorities might rethink their advice in England and Wales. It's good enough for NATO to use 5.56 as the main round for hoomin beans too...

 

[Siggy]

You can shoot Muntjac or Chinese Water Deer using the following (direct extract from the Firearms Act):

For muntjac and Chinese water deer only, a rifle with a minimum calibre of not less than . 220" and muzzle energy of not less than 1,000 ft/lb and a bullet weight of not less than 50gr may be used.

It's perfectly legal to use a .222 or a .223 providing that the projectile is at least 50 grains and that the muzzle energy is at least 1000ft/lbs.

It is only for the larger species that the minimum calibre is .240" and minimum muzzle energy must be 1,700 ft/lbs. (ie all other deer)

Yawn, read what I wrote again. The key word is all, as in all deer species. muntjac and CWD are as subset of the group All UK deer species.

 

[Triggermortis]

Probably swimming against the tide here, but its only the most popular round because FEO's think its the "safest" rifle for beginners. Basically they want to give out the smallest calibre they can and restrict our choice as much as possible. As a deer stalking round it's always been marginal and should be the reserve of accurate shots who are self disciplined enough not to take chancy shots - certainly not novices.

When for the sake of .5 mm you could be shooting a light recoiling 6.5 delivering considerably more energy with great chance of a humane kill, I really fail to see the attraction of what is basically a varminting round.

I had considered selling both my .243’s and going down the 6.5 route but I’m to old to grow a man bun

 

[boar & deer]

Not really because 140 grains carries a lot more momentum than 100 grains...but creedmoor is a bit slow for copper so perhaps...only kidding.

TBH, this thread has prompted me to go back to the research and check. Turns out I was mistaken, bullets bigger than 90 grains are just as effective as anything else, it's when you go below 75 grains you start having problems, so I am rethinking my opinions on .243. Suffice to say, it looks like the minimum was set at an appropriate level in the legislation.

I started off with a .243 and it was a very accurate and effective on muntjac - it just won't consistently pass through fallow - not that I was shooting many then, but may be that gave me a jaded opinion of the round. Still wouldn't recommend it to a newbie. However there's a lovely left handed sako 243 AI just come up on the SD which I am now very tempted by!

More fallow shot in the uk with the .243 then any other caliber you obviously havnt shot many if you think you under gunned ive shot more more game with my 243 then any on my other calibers combined its not a bad round for boar from a high seat aswell. My bullet normally pass through but im an ideal world your bullets wouldnt and all yhe energy would be dumped in the deer. What bullet qere you useing for them not to pass through ?

 

[Smellydog]

My bullet normally pass through but im an ideal world your bullets wouldnt and all yhe energy would be dumped in the deer.

Another myth and red herring.
Usually carried over from sub 12 ftlb airgunners.
If a bullet or what ever stops it has stopped working! At some very rapid pont in time it has ceased to move and by default stopped taring, ripping and severing blood vessels!

 

[boar & deer]

Another myth and red herring.
Usually carried over from sub 12 ftlb airgunners.
If a bullet or what ever stops it has stopped working! At some very rapid pont in time it has ceased to move and by default stopped taring, ripping and severing blood vessels!

Rubbish a bullet penciling thourgh a deer will do less damage then a bullet thats expanded and dumped all its energy in a deer. You dont know what your talking about **** knows what shooting deer has got to do with air rifle

 

[Ade8mm]

Well I for sure wont be selling my.243
A superb cartridge.
You can bury me with mine.
Aye

 

[Tim.243]

Well I for sure wont be selling my.243
A superb cartridge.
You can bury me with mine.
Aye

When they dig it up in 500 years " it looks unused" will be said abt it

 

[plonker]

Well I for sure wont be selling my.243
A superb cartridge.
You can bury me with mine.
Aye

Same here
Also have 2 other friends that shoot large reds in the midlands with their 243s.

 

[Ade8mm]

When they dig it up in 500 years " it looks unused" will be said abt it

Yep. That'll be it (unlike your Mrs )

 

[Smellydog]

Rubbish a bullet penciling thourgh a deer will do less damage then a bullet thats expanded and dumped all its energy in a deer. You dont know what your talking about **** knows what shooting deer has got to do with air rifle

It's like trying to drive a nail through knot sometimes

 

[Magnificent 7]

Not really because 140 grains carries a lot more momentum than 100 grains...but creedmoor is a bit slow for copper so perhaps...only kidding.

TBH, this thread has prompted me to go back to the research and check. Turns out I was mistaken, bullets bigger than 90 grains are just as effective as anything else, it's when you go below 75 grains you start having problems, so I am rethinking my opinions on .243. Suffice to say, it looks like the minimum was set at an appropriate level in the legislation.

I started off with a .243 and it was a very accurate and effective on muntjac - it just won't consistently pass through fallow - not that I was shooting many then, but may be that gave me a jaded opinion of the round. Still wouldn't recommend it to a newbie. However there's a lovely left handed sako 243 AI just come up on the SD which I am now very tempted by!

I’d like to add my two penneth here also I started out with a 243 and also had a 308 on the ticket I shot a few deer with my 243 but tbh found that you had to be more accurate with it i in my learning had a few second shots.When I had enough money saved I bought a 308 and this left more room for error so to speak it walloped deer even a bit more of an amateur shot stuff flopped I then fell out with the 243.Since learning to become a better shot and please listen any amount of paper punching cannot prepare you for the real deal yep you need experience in the field.I purchased another 243 for vermin and I have found it to be like a laser beam I’ve shot deer with it and it kills tbh it is my everyday carry about calibre for estate work from rabbits to deer.Beginner calibre my opinion is not on humane grounds at least not In my hands at the time.