.284 non lead bullet/load recommendations

[Bowland blades]

You’ve changed your tune, you spent half another thread telling us that speed wasn’t that important, which is it?!

Context to the subject at hand is required . Speed in itself is meaningless. I certainly wouldn't need that kind of speed shooting std jacketed lead bullets or if i was maxing out inside 200 yards .
Impact speed is however important with copper ! Without pushing pressures! Speed for speeds sake or pushing pressures into iffy bolt lifts remains Dumb , just shoot closer game .
At 300 i found significant difference in bullet expansion starting , copper TTSX and perhaps we can guess all copper should hence IMO not be stretched into the unproven ranges
BTW didnt even chrono this load when i noticed the above and it wasnt the top load , its just a fast barrel!

 

[25 Sharps]

Context to the subject at hand is required . Speed in itself is meaningless. I certainly wouldn't need that kind of speed shooting std jacketed lead bullets or if i was maxing out inside 200 yards .
Impact speed is however important with copper ! Without pushing pressures! Speed for speeds sake or pushing pressures into iffy bolt lifts remains Dumb , just shoot closer game .
At 300 i found significant difference in bullet expansion starting , copper TTSX and perhaps we can guess all copper should hence IMO not be stretched into the unproven ranges
BTW didnt even chrono this load when i noticed the above and it wasnt the top load , its just a fast barrel!

Pretty much the whole other thread was you telling us that speed wasn’t key with copper and 300 fps at the muzzle didn’t make any realistic difference at 300 yards. You were even suggesting an MV of 2500 fps for comparison at one point.

Now you’re telling the OP speed is key!! (Which is what everyone else you were arguing with on the other thread was saying in the first place)

Hypocrite springs to mind

 

[25 Sharps]

Can’t see it as a particular problem if there is no electrolyte present to cause galvanic corrosion.
As an aside the bullets and tips are stored separately and I tip them as required pretty much, normally a thousand at a time.
I suppose if you bought some bullets and left them somewhere damp for a fair while there might be an issue but that would be the case with pretty much anything to do with firearms. Rifles, primers, powder and so on. I have some A tips that have been in my gun room for ages and they haven’t corroded at all.

Was more thinking bullets sat on a damp shop storage shelf for a long time.

 

[Yew Tree Fieldsports]

Was more thinking bullets sat on a damp shop storage shelf for a long time.

They are in a sealed bag inside the box. Besides they don’t seem to stay on shelves very long, damp or otherwise. In any case I can’t imagine many rifle specialists having a damp storage area, it would be catastrophic for all sorts of things.
As an aside, given the ‘eco’ reasoning behind the proposed lead ban, I find it very surprising that the use of plastic tips hasn’t come under scrutiny. It will be the next thing on the agenda in my view so I felt it pretty pointless to head down that road.

 

[User00040]

Hypocrite springs to mind

@Bowland blades ?

More like another three-deer-a-year armchair stalker

 

[User00040]

It will be the next thing on the agenda in my view so I felt it pretty pointless to head down that road.

If you found a way to make bullets out of wood they will still want to ban them.

Funny how willing some are to follow the Pied Piper...

 

[Yew Tree Fieldsports]

If you found a way to make bullets out of wood they will still want to ban them.

Funny how willing some are to follow the Pied Piper...

I’m just being a pragmatist rather than following any sort of pied piper. The ban is coming whether we like it or not and to me it seemed sensible to avoid the use of single use plastics in any part of my process because they are the next obvious target.
My packaging is all recycled, the plastic bag in the box is biodegradeable and the labelling is printed using ‘eco friendly’ inks on labels produced from ‘sustainable’ forestry.
Rather than following any pied piper I would suggest I’m ‘future proofing’ my business as best I can. It seems a sensible thing to do.

 

[Bowland blades]

Pretty much the whole other thread was you telling us that speed wasn’t key with copper and 300 fps at the muzzle didn’t make any realistic difference at 300 yards. You were even suggesting an MV of 2500 fps for comparison at one point.

Now you’re telling the OP speed is key!! (Which is what everyone else you were arguing with on the other thread was saying in the first place)

Hypocrite springs to mind

No you obviously didnt understand what i was saying ( speed at the muzzle isnt relivent , its the speed of impact ) Now you cant have one without the other to a degree BUT you can have a bullet thats fast at the muzzle yet impacts at a much slower speed .
Speed of impact is important ! copper looses speed in a shorter window ! Choices are 1. shoot closer 2. choose a bullet that holds velocity better 3. increase speed ( which we just happen to measure at the muzzle !)
Prime example is in the 22 Hornet 35V max it can do 3000 fps at the muzzle! but takes longer to get to 200 yards than the 40 - 46 grain bullets that start off about 2700-2800
Speed at the muzzle in itself is meaningless, copper slows down fast , impact speed is very relevant to terminal performance, would seriously like to know true calculations on measuring downrange velocities compared to lead of the same dimensions and shape.

As i shoot a lot of steel shot i am aware that Steel looses its ability to kill in a very small window is goes from totally deadly to seeing birds flinch a bit and fly on . I suggest copper bullets might well suffer the same. Through collecting spent TTSX bullets i see this in the difference in expansion

 

[Bowland blades]

@Bowland blades ?

More like another three-deer-a-year armchair stalker

Yeah , right ! i mostly find that sort of statement comes from a person with deep insecurity of their own position , Unlike many i have published proof on the webpage , facebook , instagram etc etc .
what we have here folks is a basic level troll , where is yours eh?

 

[25 Sharps]

No you obviously didnt understand what i was saying ( speed at the muzzle isnt relivent , its the speed of impact ) Now you cant have one without the other to a degree BUT you can have a bullet thats fast at the muzzle yet impacts at a much slower speed .
Speed of impact is important ! copper looses speed in a shorter window ! Choices are 1. shoot closer 2. choose a bullet that holds velocity better 3. increase speed ( which we just happen to measure at the muzzle !)
Prime example is in the 22 Hornet 35V max it can do 3000 fps at the muzzle! but takes longer to get to 200 yards than the 40 - 46 grain bullets that start off about 2700-2800
Speed at the muzzle in itself is meaningless, copper slows down fast , impact speed is very relevant to terminal performance, would seriously like to know true calculations on measuring downrange velocities compared to lead of the same dimensions and shape.

As i shoot a lot of steel shot i am aware that Steel looses its ability to kill in a very small window is goes from totally deadly to seeing birds flinch a bit and fly on . I suggest copper bullets might well suffer the same. Through collecting spent TTSX bullets i see this in the difference in expansion

You were specifically saying 300 for less at the muzzle for the copper bullets was of little to no consequence to the impact speed at 300 yards.

I posted examples of the difference and you still denied the science. You make it up as you go along

 

[Bowland blades]

You were specifically saying 300 for less at the muzzle for the copper bullets was of little to no consequence to the impact speed at 300 yards.

I posted examples of the difference and you still denied the science. You make it up as you go along

I dont know quite where you pulled that from, it certainly isnt in context that i remember or can follow as does not appear as part of a quote .
At 300 yards the performance is fine in my direct first hand experience and i can show recovered bullets. The differences in impact range are however pretty clear which where the longer shots . I cannot remember one not leaving a strike through ( though i did recover one bullet just behind the strike through ( must have been bone fragments and hydraulic pressure in front of the bullet that broke the rib and blew the skin out ) bullet still just about hanging in the opposite shoulder . Nearly all bullets are recovered after looking from a skid mark, i have yet to find one from a roe or other small species partly that is where they were shot ( ground cover).

I do feel that there is here a molehill being built into a mountain . What i belive at this point in time is we still all have a lot to learn about copper and we should not twin it with jacketed lead expanding bullets .
In a decade or more we will see the whole non toxic thing develop , new products will continue to be brought onto the market and some are bound to fail and be discontinued .
Speed of impact can be handled the trick is to actually know what occurs at different impact speeds not so much " can i push it a bit faster" but " at what range is the impact effecting the terminal performance on the given quarry?" Some bullets will perform well at more sedate impact speeds and some will need higher . The important bit is the finding out what your bullets do and within what range window . I vividly remember shooting a roe buck near 20 years ago at very short range with a 70 grn? Nosler BT from the 243 in the hart , no bullet found and no strike ( deer dropped on the spot though) i found only the plastic tip on skinning it had run down towards the rear end just under the skin on a broadside shot . An example of too fast an impact ?
What i am now doing is calling 300 about the maximum under the right conditions, with 100 grain TTSX at the 3200 FPS muzzle velocity on stags , knowing i have a little more left to fix a mistake or take another beast . I suggest everyone does their own testing

 

[25 Sharps]

@Bowland blades ?

More like another three-deer-a-year armchair stalker

All shot beyond 300 yards with a copper bullet

 

[25 Sharps]

I dont know quite where you pulled that from, it certainly isnt in context that i remember or can follow as does not appear as part of a quote .

Holy Mary Mother of God!!

You literally said in the post I quoted

Have any of you figured out how little extra 250-300 fps really is when it reaches a 300 yard stag.


And now you are saying speed is key….


Are you ok? Or suffering from memory loss!

You were completely hypocritical on the previous thread telling people to run copper slowly then comparing it to your load at 3200 fps and this thread proves it. Go back and read it and then read your first line one here, tell me it’s not contradictory…

 

[Edinburgh Rifles]

Prefer yew tree over fox any time. Much more predictable result and no need to shoulder shoot.
Like shooting lead in copper

no need to shoulder shoot with any of them that expand reliably

 

[Island]

Prefer yew tree over fox any time. Much more predictable result and no need to shoulder shoot.
Like shooting lead in copper

In my experience using Fox Classic Hunters for over two years now I have found no requirement to restrict myself to shoulder shots.

Furthermore I have noticed no difference at all in mortality rate between lead and non-lead bullets and the oft-quoted experience of "all non-lead shot deer will run significantly further than those shot with a traditional lead bullet" continues to elude me (assuming that I have done my part correctly).

 

[User00040]

Furthermore I have noticed no difference at all in mortality rate between lead and non-lead bullets and the oft-quoted experience of "all non-lead shot deer will run significantly further than those shot with a traditional lead bullet" continues to elude me (assuming that I have done my part correctly).

Sample size matters.

I shot a buck this morning with a 'new to market' bullet and dropped it on the spot. Bullet performed well out of factory ammo, but I suspect shot placement helped (straight through the neck, under 100m).

I've decided to hold off on any presumptions/conclusions until the end of the season.

Will make a thread at the end of it though, promise!

 

[Island]

Sample size matters.

I shot a buck this morning with a 'new to market' bullet and dropped it on the spot. Bullet performed well out of factory ammo, but I suspect shot placement helped (straight through the neck, under 100m).

I've decided to hold off on any presumptions/conclusions until the end of the season.

Will make a thread at the end of it though, promise!

You are absolutely correct in saying sample size matters.

Hence why I base my opinion on two years of Roe deer control over three seperate estates and two years of Red deer reduction cull (including night and out-of-season licenses) in a forestry block / restock on behalf of SWL.

When it comes down to it one can only properly form an opinion based on experience. My experience to date, based on my sample size (which I am content is large enough), has led me to the (personal) conclusion that I stated above in Post #35 above.

Other opinions are available...

 

[Farmerjoe]

Crickey, I seem to have stirred up the hornets nest!

Thank you to those with constructive reply’s.

What I was really looking for was an idea of starting point for loading copper in the .284 Win with the Viht powders listed as I can’t find anything suitable after scratching around on line.

Many thanks,
FJ

 

[Island]

Crickey, I seem to have stirred up the hornets nest!

Thank you to those with constructive reply’s.

What I was really looking for was an idea of starting point for loading copper in the .284 Win with the Viht powders listed as I can’t find anything suitable after scratching around on line.

Many thanks,
FJ

Contact @Edinburgh Rifles for great assistance with Peregrine or Fox, ditto @Yew Tree Fieldsports for their own excellent bullets.

Outwith those I have found GRT to be more or less on the money with mono-metal bullets once you get your inputs sorted out properly.

 

[Ronin]

Still available?

I have enough for a couple of years of killing on the areas I look after

I misread or misinterpreted the original post - I saw what do you use

I’ve also some Hasler 130 I’ve yet to try and will be very interested to try the Yew Tree 7mm given their impressive results from friends experienced of terminal ballistics and accuracy