Hi there fellas! I'm currently in a job where working with ballistics is a daily routine and was having a little brain storm. I've now gained some 2000 acres of Roe rich permissions of which most is open hill bordered by forestry. So here we go. Legal requirement to take Roe in England/Wales requires a muzzle energy of 1700 ft/lbs correct? I've tried many a time to get within some half decent range of these beauties to no success, about 350 yards on a good day. Now for the science! If I were to shoot one with a 95 grain .243 at this distance, the terminal ballistics is equivalent to shooting it at 100 yards with a .222.... No good in my eyes as the energy transfer and penetration would not be sufficient enough to offer a clean kill. So... .308. Given my circumstances this seems a much more effective round at this range as it offers the same ft/lbs of energy at 400 yards as a .243 would at 175, giving a far better chance of humanely dispatching the beast. Can you see where I'm coming from? You may say 'well get closer mun' tried it, doesn't work, tried it some more, nope still no! What's your opinions chaps?
.308 For Roe 400+ yards?
- Thread starter Ranger338
- Start date
Are you looking at sniping the deer because you cannot get closer to them? Maybe invest on a few outings with someone who can help you learn how to get closer. Shooting at a roe deer at 400 yards is really a contested subject, and unless you are required to do a pest clearing job (even then I would have thought it is not advisable) not something you will find much sympathy for.
Can totally see where your coming from bud, it's hard to explain the terrain but it's no ideal stalking territory by any means! I'd have to try and get there before them! Yes it's a clear up job as they are wrecking fences allowing stock to escape. What I failed to mention in the original post was that I'd also be using the .308 for long range target work so ideally have one rifle for both uses.
The velocity and/or muzzle energy legal requirements are no more nor less that arbitrary limits that a given cartridge must exceed at the muzzle. Downrange it will be less and in many cases depending on the bullet shape less than that of an identical cartridge but of different bullet profile.
At 400 yards I've no doubt that any .308 load that satisfies the legal requirements will kill a deer. I know, personally, people that have shot rather a lot of red deer hinds at these ranges with a .308 Winchester. Culling. Have no doubt that if placed in the right spot it will kill and kill humanely. Would I do it? No. Is it legal? Yes.
Personally as a "sporting challenge" I consider it with the same distaste as I do those who consider it a "sporting challenge" to shoot really high pheasants with a .410" or a 28 bore. There are better cartridges if you really must shoot deer at 400 yards. 7mm Remington Magnum or in .308 the .300 Winchester Magnum.
At 400 yards I've no doubt that any .308 load that satisfies the legal requirements will kill a deer. I know, personally, people that have shot rather a lot of red deer hinds at these ranges with a .308 Winchester. Culling. Have no doubt that if placed in the right spot it will kill and kill humanely. Would I do it? No. Is it legal? Yes.
Personally as a "sporting challenge" I consider it with the same distaste as I do those who consider it a "sporting challenge" to shoot really high pheasants with a .410" or a 28 bore. There are better cartridges if you really must shoot deer at 400 yards. 7mm Remington Magnum or in .308 the .300 Winchester Magnum.
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8x57
Distinguished Member
Do you simply want to kill deer or stalk them. Stalker or Sniper?
Personally I would say that you should accept the challenge and stalk into an acceptable shooting range much the same as you would do stalking reds on the open hill in Scotland. After all that's what the sport as opposed to deer control is all about. Very few professional stalkers would ask or even allow you to shoot reds at 400 yards in Scotland, and roe are considerably smaller.
The fences can't be up to much if the roe are damaging them.
P.S. I think that this subject is in the wrong section, shouldn't it really be in the stalking section rather than the legal section?
Personally I would say that you should accept the challenge and stalk into an acceptable shooting range much the same as you would do stalking reds on the open hill in Scotland. After all that's what the sport as opposed to deer control is all about. Very few professional stalkers would ask or even allow you to shoot reds at 400 yards in Scotland, and roe are considerably smaller.
The fences can't be up to much if the roe are damaging them.
P.S. I think that this subject is in the wrong section, shouldn't it really be in the stalking section rather than the legal section?
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Check out American websites/youtube as a lot of them shoot out at that distance as the norm. Also The Clarke Boys in NZ on youtube
Mark Ripley is one for long range stuff on Youtube in the UK
Oh I can see the pipes being stoked up/calculator's will be red hot for this one....
Tim.243
Mark Ripley is one for long range stuff on Youtube in the UK
Oh I can see the pipes being stoked up/calculator's will be red hot for this one....
Tim.243
levigsp
Well-Known Member
So what can I say, you can kill at that range and there's no disputing that, but I have another question.
PLEASE explain why it is not possible to get closer than 350 yards? the reason I ask is that I have NEVER seen anywhere in the UK where it is not possible to get closer.
PLEASE explain why it is not possible to get closer than 350 yards? the reason I ask is that I have NEVER seen anywhere in the UK where it is not possible to get closer.
Akeld
Well-Known Member
Perhaps set up a hide and wait for them, or make a ghillie suit and get crawling, I'm assuming the wind is in your favour at all times when you stalk them. Rather than extend your range, why not work on fieldcraft. Can you post some pictures of the terrain as well please, they seem very skittish if they take flight when you are 400 yards away. Failing all this, put something on the fences to make them more visible to them so they don't damage them
sikamalc
Administrator
Well if you cant stalk nearer to any deer, put a high seat up. If you still cant get a shot at a reasonable distance sell your rifles, or stick to shooting paper. Anyone who thinks they can safely and successfully shoot Roe at 400yds needs to think again about being a deer stalker and the welfare of the deer, and not as just targets.
I have just noticed you have joined the site, plus JUST started to think about deer stalking. I would take your level 1 first, if you have not done so already, although I fail to see where you would consider shooting at Roe at over 400yds is ethical and professional. I hope you have a good deer dog or access to one, you are going to need it.
I have just noticed you have joined the site, plus JUST started to think about deer stalking. I would take your level 1 first, if you have not done so already, although I fail to see where you would consider shooting at Roe at over 400yds is ethical and professional. I hope you have a good deer dog or access to one, you are going to need it.
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palmer_mike
Well-Known Member
Am I right in thinking this thread is a wind-up?
8x57
Distinguished Member
I did think the same Mike especially as it was only the third post that a new site member made and his introduction didn't exactly give a lot away about himself.
Ethical question to one side, yes the 308 will do what you want at 400 yards but the issue is judgement of wind. A few mph miscalculation will make the difference between a kill and a nasty gut shot. Choice of projectile is important, I would choose something aerodynamic and frangible. Nathan Fosters site terminal ballistics will give you chapter and verse on the best choices
Only ingredient missing here is A max.
I agree. Also if the op does post pics it will be interesting to learn the views of the experienced stalkers on how to get closer.
countrryboy
Well-Known Member
I agree with levi above, the OP could be genuinely new to sport and if u believe some of the crap out there on the net it might come across as perfectly normal to shoot things at those ranges. If u believe some of it, folk will still be brain/neck shooting at those ranges too.
Thats the 1 problem with net so much BS on it and if u don't know any better might believe it all.
Plenty of videos/clips of folk shooting crows/rabbits at mental ranges don't always show the misses or any injured birds flapping about
Thats the 1 problem with net so much BS on it and if u don't know any better might believe it all.
Plenty of videos/clips of folk shooting crows/rabbits at mental ranges don't always show the misses or any injured birds flapping about
All these 'celebrity ' Internet stars have a lot to answer for !! Posting video 's of long range kills , it shows so much disrispepect to your quarry ,encouraging newcomers into doing the same or trying thinking that's how it's done , Roe deer damaging a stock fence on moorland / forrest, yeah right , let's see some pics of it !! Another fine case of why people need mentoring, probably all good intensions from the OP, but need a bit of guidance .
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