.308 For Roe 400+ yards?

As Malc said above - 400 yards is one heck of a range to be shooting deer at!

I'm pretty new to the sport myself and, having been lucky enough to pick the brains of some pretty experienced stalkers, have been told that even on the hill most folks are probably looking at an absolute max range of 200m to ensure accurate shot placement and a humane kill.

Thats not to say it cant (or hasnt) been done at ranges longer than that, but thats what the experienced guys told me they are looking for. And thats on red/sika deer which are a much bigger target than roe!

Just walk 200m and you'll probably be surprised how far it actually is.

What I can add here from my own long standing experience as a target rifle shooter (iron sights out to 1000x) is that 400 yards is easily enough distance for even a reasonably mild wind to start blowing rounds about by a factor of several inches and over a foot if the wind is strong or gusting. You're going to need to dial in 2-3 minutes of windage at 300x to allow for a medium/strong cross wind, which is 6" - 9" easily and that could take you outside of the kill zone on a roe deer.

County Deer Stalking did a video a while back on just this topic and its worth a watch.



You're also going to run into zeroing difficulties with bullet drop. Zeroing 1" high at 100x might give you MPBR to 220-250x or thereabouts, but there is no one zero thats going to allow you to accurately shoot deer at all ranges out to 400x, and I wouldnt want to be guesstimating ranges in the heat of battle (so to speak!) to know where to aim with a ballistic reticle.

As I say, none of this is to say it cant be done but should it be done? I'd say not and I'd personally be worried about wounding the animal taking a 400x shot so its not something I would do.
 
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I won't be taking any 400 yard shots on roe. My dog hasn't the wind to run that far to get to the shot site before he starts tracking when I mess the shot up. :stir: :rofl:
 
In your intro you claim you are new to stalking but a very experienced fox shooter, so I am led to believe you must have some fieldcraft but still cannot get closer than 350 yards to Roe. You also claim that these Roe are damaging fences, they are some beasts if they are allowing stock to escape. Experience tells me that you are some sort of troublemaking troll, good manners require that I give you the benefit of the doubt, so that is what I shall do, for now, just in case you are genuine.

However you should realise that a bigger/more powerful calibre will not make up for any shortcomings you may have as a stalker. The kind of tactics you are proposing are those usually adopted by an experienced professional deer manager and only then when circumstances dictate. I suggest you get yourself some stalking experience or even maybe ask an experienced stalker to accompany you on your ground to keep you right.

John
 
Firstly, any full bore chambering legal for roe is capable of clean kills at 400yds. That doesn't mean the guy with the gun is. This is one of the best reference websites I've come across and worth a read by anyone into ballistics, chambering, rifles etc. Knowledgebase

All that said, roe in my opinion are not the most difficult of deer to stalk. I'm not saying they are stupid, but maybe not the brightest of the species I've experience with. They are naturally inquisitive. Just 2 hours ago I was out walking 4 dogs in the fields round the cottage and there were 2 youngsters stood in a rape field right in front of me. I kept walking and got to within 75yds of them before they ran off. To 150yds away! Then simply walked off up a tramline in the crop. On open hill I've covered my face, kept a lowish profile and walked in on feeding roe. When their heads come up, stop. Heads down move in again.

I'm convinced with a bit of fieldcraft as suggested above, shaving off 200yds on these deer you describe would be relatively easy. If it's flat open ground a lying down shot off a bi-pod at 200yds should become achievable.

Just my thoughts on the matter.
 
Your username and post suggests to me that you may have been in the forces or read a bit about long-range shots at Taliban. If you are in the forces, you might be eligible to join DDM. Anyone in the forces should be able to get a lot closer than you can, though.
 
It is illegal to cause unnecessary suffering or distress to any animal be it domestic or wild. Any stalker has an absolute legal as well as a moral duty to ensure a clean kill. I am not sure if many stalkers would come to your defence when you cause unnecessary suffering because you have been trying to 400+ yard shots.

A roe is quite a small animal. A large Buck is less than 12" from its back to bottom of the chest, and the kill zone is the size of a clay pigeon or side plate. The trouble is that compared to say a crow, being slightly off will cause a terrible injury that will not kill quickly. At 400 yds a gentle 10 mph breeze can move a bullet 8 to 12 inches. That is bullet straight in the guts. That is ultimately fatal, but not for several hours if not days.

Also Roe move. And they move quite a bit between squeezing a trigger and bullet finally arriving. Enough to cause a complete miss - which is ok, but more likely enough to cause a non-fatal wound.

Fortunately for you Roe are creatures of habit and pretty terratorial. Get to know your ground well and where they are. Don't go out stalking initially - just walk and sit and watch. Once you know the ground well and where they are likely to be then just move in very slowly. Even if they are in the open and there is open ground between you, with close observation and patience you will get close enough for a shot. Key is to get the wind in your favour.

Dont worry, you will do at least half a dozen if not more stalks before getting one - that's stalking
 
Must be made of chocolate the fences down your way if Roe are damaging them. I'm sure you must be able to get a lot closer than 350.

Nowt wrong with A max :stir::stir:
 
Personally would not shoot deer at these distances as I like stalking however how many of the neahsayers shoot foxes at long distances? I know a good few keepers and pesties that do regularly
Regards
Jimmy
 
equivalent to shooting it at 100 yards with a .222.... No good in my eyes as the energy transfer and penetration would not be sufficient enough to offer a clean kill.
Can you see where I'm coming from?

have you ever shot a roe with a .222?
I have shot them out to 200yds with one and believe me they produce plenty of energy to kill a roe.

That said....at 400yds terminal energy is the least of your problems.

I have a 300 win mag which produces 2200 ftlbs at 400yds apparently
Same as a .243 at the muzzle

would I shoot a roe with it? Hell no!
more because in the field with a first shot I would not be comfortable putting that round well inside a 3-4" target zone.
I shot at 400m 437yds last week in a mild 5-6mph wind on a range.
lots of bulls and v bulls out of the 12 or so rounds I fired. also several that were significantly outside that 3-4" target, on a roe thats a hauch, gut or throat shot with no chance of a follow up.
You may be more confident that I at first round hits at that range


May well be preaching to the converted but....

I can't think of a single environment in the UK that allows a shot no closer than 400-450 yds.
I have walked and crawled in full view of roe and red deer much closer than that without being seen or disturbing them

Deer eyesight is actually quite poor when it comes to definition. what they see much more effectively is movement.
At 450yds you are a bush, a blob, a shadow, depending on what colour you wear or laundry products you use, you may be more or less likely to cause alarm.

What do Deer See? | Quality Deer Management Association

undisturbed deer are remarkably tolerant to extremely small movements
even when seen if you are lucky enough to realise before too much movement has been detected, if you freeze and do not give away any other signals (scent, noise etc) deer will often be inquisitive or freeze and then relax after a period of time.


A couple of weeks back I had a roe buck walk towards me from about 60-70yds to within 20yds.
I was standing in full view with a dog on a lead. he clearly saw me but as I was already looking at him through a scope on a stick it didn't help him.
If I had to move he would have been off in a flash


hypothetical answer to a hypothetical question
Yes
more energy is better

but that's not the major issue here
 


point of interest

skip to 14:50mins

Target shown has a clear right to left breeze indicated by the grass behind it and also the bullet splash/dust.
if you were to make a call based on that alone it would be to aim or dial RIGHT

shooter misses right due to a 10mph breeze LEFT TO RIGHT because he didn't hold or dial enough LEFT
 
please do it.

Why? As adults we should be able to have a mature, sensible and informative (for those that don't know any better) discussion over such matters. Already there have been some positive suggestions put forward regarding ballistics, stalking ability, fieldcraft, deer habits and so on. IF the post was put on to incite agro then what better way to show that doesn't work than replying in an informative and corrective manner?

IF the OP is genuine and doesn't know any better, is looking for advice, wants to learn etc, then he will if the discussion continues. If the post is shut what does that say about the members on here?
 
If this had been a long range sniper kill by one of our lads this week, a good example would be...

Craig Harrison (born November 1974) is a former Corporal of Horse (CoH) in the Blues and Royals, a cavalry regiment of the British Army, and as of November 2009 holds the record for the longest confirmed sniper kill in combat, at a range of 2,475 m (2,707 yd).


Mention deer and most people want to nail OP to the yard arm!!

There is no balance with this type of post, A pat on the back for one, a kick in the sack for the other...


Tim.243
 
If this had been a long range sniper kill by one of our lads this week, a good example would be...

Craig Harrison (born November 1974) is a former Corporal of Horse (CoH) in the Blues and Royals, a cavalry regiment of the British Army, and as of November 2009 holds the record for the longest confirmed sniper kill in combat, at a range of 2,475 m (2,707 yd).


Mention deer and most people want to nail OP to the yard arm!!

There is no balance with this type of post, A pat on the back for one, a kick in the sack for the other...


Tim.243

Absolutely no comparison between the two ! are the deer going to shoot back at you or your colleagues, no they are deer on a hill , that require a bit if skill to get close enough to, not take pot shots at !!!
 
Absolutely no comparison between the two!

Correct. Indeed a wound to an enemy combatant is better than killing him. Kill him and he's dead. Wound him and you've now tied up a minimum of one or two of his comrades in tending to him or evacuating him.

But, Arron, I guess it depends on how many Taliban you've shot this year..... :rofl:
 
Know we have you on the subject of foxes then my tally is 24...

God man, we used to kill minimum of a hundred and thirty per year. Ninety plus, to over a hundred, shot, the rest, forty or so, trapped or snared. Mind it was over a thousand acre estate (the neighbouring estates didn't shoot foxes so I guess when we killed one we really just made room for another to come in)...and yes, as you want confirmed, all with a 6x42 on a twenty-six inch barrel .308 Winchester. So that's me done on that topic.
 
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Correct. Indeed a wound to an enemy combatant is better than killing him. Kill him and he's dead. Wound him and you've now tied up a minimum of one or two of his comrades in tending to him or evacuating him.

But, Arron, I guess it depends on how many Taliban you've shot this year..... :rofl:


never mind the number of shots he took to walk in the final one..
 
Why? As adults we should be able to have a mature, sensible and informative (for those that don't know any better) discussion over such matters. Already there have been some positive suggestions put forward regarding ballistics, stalking ability, fieldcraft, deer habits and so on. IF the post was put on to incite agro then what better way to show that doesn't work than replying in an informative and corrective manner?

IF the OP is genuine and doesn't know any better, is looking for advice, wants to learn etc, then he will if the discussion continues. If the post is shut what does that say about the members on here?

+1 Good post jamross, although I think the OP has maybe stalked off ??john
 
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