.308 For Roe 400+ yards?

It should be about the stalk rather than the shooting at least for a recreatkonal stalker , if the shooting is what does it for you stick to targets.

Why should it?

Who are you to dictate to someone how they should enjoy their sport?

A bloke comes on here and asks a genuine question only to get told to take up another hobby... One of the blokes winding into him was the site owner no less!

You know what I am seeing more and more of in the stalking world? Pompous arseholes..
 
Why should it?

Who are you to dictate to someone how they should enjoy their sport?

A bloke comes on here and asks a genuine question only to get told to take up another hobby... One of the blokes winding into him was the site owner no less!

You know what I am seeing more and more of in the stalking world? Pompous arseholes..

From some of what Ive read on this forum I agree with your last sentence BUT stalking /shooting deer at long ranges has ethical issues , we should all know how wind affects a shots and understand elevation so obviously the further the deer the more likelihood of a poorly placed shot ...how ever great a shot you think you are you are increasing the risk of having a deer having a leg or jaw being blown off and dying a slow painful death ,if a do gooding rambler finds the injured deer it would possibly make the national press then ALL stalkers reputation goes down the pan, I target shoot and some of the best guys Ive seen (3" groups at 600yds) get it wrong occasionally or a gust of wind screws up the shot, so most take a "sighter" shot to verify the POI , of course you cant do this in the field.
 
Why should it?

Who are you to dictate to someone how they should enjoy their sport?

A bloke comes on here and asks a genuine question only to get told to take up another hobby... One of the blokes winding into him was the site owner no less!

You know what I am seeing more and more of in the stalking world? Pompous arseholes..

Not at all getting at the new member its just something that's creeping into stalking, why is it called stalking? Because that is the sport
Its not the shooting, maybe you can shoot them further but its shooting not stalking and last time I !ooked this was still a stalking forum.
As a pro there are many times you could shoot a beast from a distance and there are plenty clients that could also but you don't you stalk in as close as you can because that is the sport, and while things can and do go wrong, when you take that shot you should be as close so when you finally take that shot the result as much as is possible should be a forgone conclusion.

400+ yards is not deerstalking and in my opinion the only time it is exceptabe is to stop a wounded beast.
I will say it again if you want to shoot at those sort of distances stick to targets not live animals there is just to much room for error.
 
Last edited:
Roe deer are not the brightest deer on the patch, if you can't get to within 50 yards you need re assess the route of the stalk! Another very easy option is to get there before they do and set up the ambush, job done.

Carl.
 
In defence of the members that responded I think the OP's first post and he subsequent back up posts paint an entirely different picture. The first post suggest that there is no alternative to shooting at these ranges, the subsequent ones do not. perhaps a little better worded initial post would have allowed a conclusion to have been reached earlier.

John
 
Why should it?

Who are you to dictate to someone how they should enjoy their sport?

A bloke comes on here and asks a genuine question only to get told to take up another hobby... One of the blokes winding into him was the site owner no less!

You know what I am seeing more and more of in the stalking world? Pompous arseholes..

Quite astute of you.

We patrol this site hard, and we as in Admin have seen a whole range of this type of post, many from nothing but troublemakers/trolls who have been banned. I would add that anyone who shoots foxes on a regular basis and then asks about shooting deer at stupid ranges is bound to get a stiff response. Slightly odd I think, but that's my opinion.

All are welcome on this site, BUT please do not tell me its the norm to shoot deer at ridiculous ranges, or even consider it, nothing pompous about that in my book. Its not stalking its target practice and no matter how good you think you are you are going to wound more than you kill.

Do people realise how small a Roe is at 400yds?? I hope the OP gets the help and advice he needs from members of this site. If he had been on some of the other facebook sites he would have probably been crucified, or some one else would have said that he shoots deer at 600yds!! going by some of the comments I see on there at times.

Here in lies the problem with patrolling and administering a site, dammed if you do and dammed if you don't :D

Have a great day.
 
I'm very much of the opinion that the person squeezing the trigger is the only person responsible for the shot , they are the only ones who know their ability and the conditions at the time of shot , far too many people on here judge others by their own abilities !

I am a fairly decent shot but I have met others who are simply outstanding (mostly target shooters who stalk) and I've met some shocking shots who in my opinion (which I keep to myself) should limit themselves to 50m on red deer !

last year I shot a roe at 350m , the alternative was to leave it as there was no option to stalk it , the conditions were perfect I know my rifle and it's drops so I dialled it and shot it , it ran 40m and dropped dead from a perfect heart shot. my decision my responsibility !

I think a lot on here are being too harsh on this guy who is asking a simple question , there is no such thing as a bad question only bad answers.
 
Why should it?

Who are you to dictate to someone how they should enjoy their sport?

A bloke comes on here and asks a genuine question only to get told to take up another hobby... One of the blokes winding into him was the site owner no less!

You know what I am seeing more and more of in the stalking world? Pompous arseholes..


While i agree with some of wot u've said, the OP was given quite a hard time initailly. But it is also a type of topic/subject likely to get folk wound up and the sort off post u would post if a troll/wind up merchant.


But do u think it is acceptable to reccommend shooting deer at 400m as normal or advisable esp given the OP is new to stalking???

It turns out OP ay be quite a good shot and used to shooting at ranges but even still (as OP will know) so mutch can go wrong when shooting at those ranges. Esp when the target can move.

I know some people that do it, but they are vastly experienced so also know when the long shot is not on and have enough knowledge/experience to stalk in also when needed.
If u've only the long shot in ur skill set u only have choice of pulling trigger or walking away, which may possibly make u pull trigger when u should be walking away/ stalking closer.
With most skills/trades now so many decent modern advances in tools etc but always good to learn the old fashioned ways so when ur modern thing breaks u have something to fall back on.

No matter how good a shot u are ur chance of pulling a shot/wounding will rise massively at that range, wot if deer is hit and moves 50m further are u capable of a quick semi accurate 450-500m shot without dailing it in?
If u've missed a deer would u be confident 100% of walking over to POI and being able to check it was a clean miss (hair, blood etc). Not always that easy at short ranges in some vegetation, never mind 400m.
And obvously field conditions will be different to a range so accuracy may drop, althou at that sort of range u will have time to get comfy find a decent shooting position


I used to stalk with a very experienced lad and the ammont of deer he shot at and missed was staggering, and thats wot he held his hands up too, amazingly all were clean misses :roll: used to shoot at wot i thought were crazy ranges.
He once bought a new rifle and was on about changing it cos he missed 6 deer on the trot with it, the fact the deer were on very far side of a long clear fell had nothing to do with it:doh:


U may well be capable of shooting accurately at 400m ut u will be more accurate at 200m and prob cloverleafing at 100m.

I don't reguard myself as a great shot but i don't miss much, i know my limitiations and like to make sure i get a clean kill, i don't bother with any fancy shots or long shots even on foxes, only thing i want is a dead animal after it.
I do think with internet too many folk are trying to impress themselves/mates/strangers online with shooting at ranges or heads, if my old head keeper caught me head shooting a fox at range he would of booted my a**e, chance of a f**k up increases and a missed fox. All that matters is a dead fox.

But then again 30 yrs ago mos folk would never really think of shooting at that range or taking brain shots the way they do now, no mods on cf rifles, scopes were often 4x32/6x40 was a big one and u just got on with it.
 
A recent paper I read by a Scottish vet who inspected carcasses at a game dealers stated that over 14% had received a second shot , what he could not tell was how long after the second shot had taken place or of course how many had got away injured.
 
Target frames are unlikely to move from the fixed position, unless they are badly maintained, deer/ fox / rabbit etc can and do move, chances of poor fall of shot in relation to something that is not fixed are multiplied exponentially, what starts out as a well thought out shot, dialled or not, turns into a complete mess if the intended just moves that tiny bit, or that slight zephyr of wind shifts a couple knots.
 
Ranger338, If you are new to stalking and finding it hard to stalk on to your deer, it is possibly got something to do with your technique/knowledge of stalking. I can see that you are from Wales. I am no great expert but may be able to help if you are in North Wales. Drop me a PM.

P.S. Don't worry, I am not looking to get into your permission! if anything, I might take you to mine to see if it helps.
 
A recent paper I read by a Scottish vet who inspected carcasses at a game dealers stated that over 14% had received a second shot , what he could not tell was how long after the second shot had taken place or of course how many had got away injured.

I keep reading of fantastic shots, but a visit to game dealers will open your eyes to how poor a lot of marksmanship is.

As a pro stalker all our clients had to shoot at a target before being allowed to go to the hill this target was called the iron stag ,in fact it was not a stag
but a steel cutout of a hind with a replaceable panel in the cull area.

The target had bullet strike's from the tip of its nose to its ar@@ , many shots missed the target completely, all this from a distance of 150 yards

While there are no doubt some excellent shots the general level of marksmanship is not that high.
 
Last edited:
It is not a case of how far you can shoot but a case of where you hit them. Bullet placement is the number one thing in killing an animal followed by bullet design and linked to bullet design is speed and mass. The key fundamentals are to find the maximum range at which you can reliably place bullets into a kill zone on a target then practice under less the perfect conditions to see how that affects your performance and then using this knowledge to assess things. After this use this info to shoot within your abilities.

The field craft side is a bit harder to put into a few words but assess the situation, decide if how much time you have, decide if you can shoot and make a clean kill from where you are if not decide where you need to be to shoot(sometimes I've actually moved away from the beast) and work out how to get there without making the beast aware.

I cant really understand this thought that shooting deer is all about stalking as close as possible and not actually about the shot. If that is the some ones preference then that is fine. However I don't think it's fair for these guys to constantly belittle others who actually want to shoot deer(within their own limits) when they can and as long as what they are doing is killing deer humanely.
 
Hi there fellas! I'm currently in a job where working with ballistics is a daily routine and was having a little brain storm. I've now gained some 2000 acres of Roe rich permissions of which most is open hill bordered by forestry. So here we go. Legal requirement to take Roe in England/Wales requires a muzzle energy of 1700 ft/lbs correct? I've tried many a time to get within some half decent range of these beauties to no success, about 350 yards on a good day. Now for the science! If I were to shoot one with a 95 grain .243 at this distance, the terminal ballistics is equivalent to shooting it at 100 yards with a .222.... No good in my eyes as the energy transfer and penetration would not be sufficient enough to offer a clean kill. So... .308. Given my circumstances this seems a much more effective round at this range as it offers the same ft/lbs of energy at 400 yards as a .243 would at 175, giving a far better chance of humanely dispatching the beast. Can you see where I'm coming from? You may say 'well get closer mun' tried it, doesn't work, tried it some more, nope still no! What's your opinions chaps?


The 260 remington is considered the most acurate long range round but the 338 lupa Magnum would be my choice

Beer can at 1230yards


That said the skill in stalking is the stalk so personaly id like to get a lot closer. 200m would be about my personal max kill distance. Then only on a wind free / low wind day

Also a roe hit chest shot with a 338 lupa Mag? Id guess the back lags would be the only salvagable meet.

I reckon shots of that range are best taken on paper or beer cans

ATB
 
OP, can I make a serious suggestion?
Leave the rifle at home so as to remove temptation. Get out first thing on a morning say 05.00 and just sit and watch ideally with bins and a spotting scope. Write a book on your observations with timings etc. and create your own reference resource. Knowing your ground is very important and will lead you to find all the in and outs of it.

Once you have this for a morning do it on an evening.

As somebody once said, "observation is rarely wasted"!

Yesterday I had a successful outing and shot a buck at 30 yards, Yes THIRTY YARDS not 3 or 400; I had watched it the previous morning and knew roughly where it would be before I set off. With good field craft and observation of wind i.e. scent, it is possible to get so close.

Try the observation thing and take a bit of time......... Your treatment on here, harsh or otherwise, was fuelled by the, with hindsight, ridiculous statement that getting close wasn't possible which I'm sure you are now much wiser about.

Please come back after an outing or two observing and share with us your findings as every day is a school day even for key board warriors LOL
 
Some pretty good advice on last few pages.

Was just going to add 1 thing (mibee not relevant to OP if does target shooting thou) but for any other novice, hoping i'm right with this dinae really usually get involved with complicated stuff;)

If ur shooting consistant 1" groups at 100m = 1moa, which may not sound great by target shooting standards but i'd guess is better than ur average stalker usually does with factory ammo. Seen experienced stalkers run out of bullets doing a dsc1 test (althou possibly nerves involved too.) and thats a 4" group

If ur shooting at a target of say 4" kill zone on a roe plus an area immediately around it where may still be pretty lethal or severely immobilse depending on ur luck
So u have a fair marign for error even a flier should in theory not be too far away and even if ur aim point was not dead centre of kill zone u should be ok.

At 400m ur 1 moa accuracy is now a 4" circle, so now u have absolutley no marign for error and that is relying on u aiming absolutley dead centre.
At 400m ur roe is a far smaller target so quite easy to be slightly out with ur aiming and thats before u bring any wind, bullet balistics, animal movement into it.
 
Ok thanks all, just to confirm, yes I am new to this and no I haven't even attempted to take a shot as I had the ethical doubt in my mind, hence asking for your thoughts, which are now very clear indeed. Please don't jump down my throat as I'm still trying to learn and am more than willing to take on board any help you guys can give me, which is greatly appreciated. Regarding the fences they are the typical shabby fences that have been up since the last king died so it wouldn't take a lot of breaking. The land owner believes that these deer are to blame. I have not seen them doing the deed in person so could maybe rule that one out. Apart from forestry roads the only access to the ground is via a green lane (at best) 14 miles from the main road which leads to a 55 acre patch of flat ground, no cover to get behind apart from a line of feed troughs at the other end ( this is where the deer are mainly) so as soon as I get to the distances previously stated they must get wind of me/spot me not sure still learning chaps.. And gallop off out of sight. I'm awfully sorry if my post sounds ridiculous but like I said I'm new and looking for info! Many thanks,

Regards, Ranger338


Possibly picked u up wrong but are the deer near a boundry or is it a small permission? Just when u mention 55 acres.

If near a boundry so u can't actually get downwind of the deer mibee try approaching the neighbouring landowner or do a deal with the stalker there. He will have the oppisate problem to u can get to the deer but there all on someone eles ground..

Are deer feeding out of feed troughs or just a coincedence there round about them?
If feeding out of them possibly ask farmer if he could move them nearer to get a safe shot. But that may not be possible as usually on/near a track/hard standing for easy access with tractors
 
I do a lot of target shooting & 1moa at 400yds not usually a problem, & we nearly always have 2 sighters (not possible when stalking), misjudge the range by 25yds & your POI changes approx 5", misjudge the average wind by 3mph & you're around 4" off, that's a big difference to a heart/lung shot on a Roe
The OP probably means well but for me it's not a shot I would ever consider, nothing worse to me in stalking than a wounded animal.
 
Back
Top