Africa 2009

[shakari]

They printed an article written by some bloody hunting agent who didn't know his ass from his elbow and had probably hunted no more than a handful of dangerous game in his life (if that) but had obviously read a few old books about how to stop a charge and then wrote a piece about charging animals.......... it was nothing more than an invitation to get someone killed if they followed his advice. I responded in a letter and a later article, both of which got edited so that not only did they not say what I wanted them to say, they didn't even make sense. I didn't see the subsequent issue but I do know that the 'agent' replied with even more total BS but the editor didn't even have the manners to send me the reply so that I coud respond..........

I've gotta say I'm not very keen on agents at the best of times because they spend most of their time talking about things they know nothing about, and this one did it in spades!

 

[stone]

Before you buy into a game farm, you need to look at all kinds of things and if you don't, you might as well put all your money in a pile and set light to it...........

not quite the way i would of put it, but pretty much the same views
i hav an estate agent friend in capetown who regulary lets me know of properties in my price range as the days go on the price is the same but the properties get smaller with less game on them
there is no point buying a game farm you are better off buying a large piece of farm land in game enriched areas and fencing certain parts off for stock, allowing game to move freely through the farm , the domestic stock will supply you with some income and meat for your workers
i don't recommend buy as a large group but a small syndicate 4 max saves a lot of arguments with at least one member in SA who can keep an eye on things and that also helps when dealing with leagal paper work and buy or selling game that you may need or for live capture sales
different areas suit different species so you also need to hav an idea of game species
remembering that hunting prices hav gone through the roof in the last five years
i looked at a farm in the karroo, it was 1500ha and bordered the farm i had hunted at
the natural game species were mountain reedbuck , kudu, steenbok and grey rhebuck along with bird shooting there were also baboon, porcupine, cape fox and a few others that i can't think of at the moment
this was classed as farmland and asking price 18 months ago was 1680000 rands , equivalent of £120,000 prices hav risen a lot since then , look at the 120ha farm in the karroo in mack's link i think that is up at 2.2million rand, 10 times smaller but bigger price tag
on top of this you needed some one to farm it so an income was acheived also they would of acted as a guardian and then you might need to think of extra game like springbuck , blesbok and impala something that will herd and stop plus you may need to get the hunting permission on neighbouring farms as yor game will often wander a little
this was some of things i had to consider before i even thought about hunting on there or taking a guest, other areas may be different or you had to fence your game in something i was not considering
plus the area i was looking at was only a couple of hours fron the nearest decent township where supplies and materials even fuel was in plenty
where shakari ,would recommend ,may not be such an easy ride
but i would like to here his thoughts on the areas he would recommend
just remember buying the property is the easy part

 

[shakari]

I wouldn't recommend buying a game farm at all I'm afraid. First you have the problem of existing or future land claim, them you have the worries of every local for miles wanting to poach your game, then the worry of maintaining fences and complyig with ever tightening game laws etc, then the worries of vehicle purchases and maintenance, then comes the work and expense of maintaining roads, buildings and bore holes etc, then comes the never ending hassle of clearing your land of alien plant species etc etc.......... the list just goes on and on. - You're much better off just using your money on buying an annual safari where you're free to go to different places as you like.

If you really do want a game farm to use as a base, you'd be much better off leasing one and if you went to the OFS, you could probably get a fantastic deal if you looked round. One of the PHs who does work for us, lives on a reasonably big area in a 5 bedroomed farmhouse with a walk in gun room and a pool and the deal he got from the owner is that he'd pay the bills and maintain the property in exchange for living there......... problem is that its the Free State which is cold as hell and has a fairly high crime rate.

Another example of farm living is another PH buddy of mine lives in KZN and a few weeks ago, someone went to his neighbours farm, dragged the owner out of his house and shot him........ I don't know the whole story, but I gather it was something to do with a land claim dispute.

The other side of the coin is living in an area such as I live which is in what's referred to as a secure estate. In my case, it's a golf course with houses around it and the entire area is surrounded by a security fence and is patrolled by security staff........ we don't even lock the cars and rarely lock the house........

 

[stone]

i was trying to look on the more positive side of things
do you still hav to hav bars on the doors and windows in your secure compound to get an insurance policy

 

[shakari]

I really don't think there is a positive side to buying a farm in SA. On top of the other things I mentioned is the fact that it's a helluva lot of hard work and an immense tie that stops you going anywhere or doing anything else.

As to insurance, we don't have security bars on the doors etc, but we do have burglar bars on the windows........... and a .45 semi, a 12 gauge, a 404 and a 500 in the house. - But we really don't need 'em. Last year we locked the house up, went to Botswana for about 2 months and from there to Tanzania for a further 5 months and the house was fine. - That's a bit more than usual and this year we'll be doing shorter trips, but we don't worry about the security here at all........

 

[TheHuntingAgency]

Once you've got 'em in, if you get caught hunting illegally, which includes hunting without the right paperwork or without a PH, you face almost certain confiscation of all equipment used during the hunt, which includes rifles and vehicles etc, fines and possible, though unlikely jail time....... in an African jail. The person supplying the hunt faces equally severe punishment.

Great advice - we heard of a group of Biltong Hunters who lost all their gear recently, and an outfitter who was stopped for a random check and through a combination of a poor attitude and previous reputation, had his pick-up and all his tents confiscated - it's like the wild west sometimes so not a place to cut corners or take chances.

Besides, we all know that the ecconomic situation will cascade down to the outfitters at some point and some will make their hunts and tours cheaper to accomodate you - us included - http://www.thehuntingagency.com/farm.asp?ID=22&Country=Namibia and like all things, you can shop around a bit and a bit of negotiation goes a long way!

Cheers

 

[1820]

My 2 p worth

Hi you guys

well I have not read all the postings but here is my 2 p worth.

with regard to getting guns in and out of SA.. I hunt with a .50 side by side dubble muzzel loading rifle and a single .50 and a single .54 the .54 I store with a chum out there (I use it for kaine rats and pigs in Natal) the other two I use in the estern cape for kudu ex. I am not a troffe hunter I just love being in the bush on my own with a gun and some gear ruffing it for a few days.. just to make to world write.. and I shoot for the pot.

so any how I go out about onec a year .. going out now again to shoot pigs ( in a moth or so.) any how cost. and the law.. I have more problems on the UK side that the SA side.. getting guns in and out.. in sa you do not need a license.

in the cape I hunt on conservincys,, there are quite a few.. there is more game and they are bigger.

in natal I hunt vermin and with permition of the cane farmers..

as for acomedation.. I just stay in B and B's they are cheep and out in the bush.. most farmers have a few extra sheds and old farm houses so if you cook for your self it realy is not a problem..

as for having to have to go with a PH MMmmm I dont know so much.. find a SA chap out here in the UK most gun club usuly have one .. and sort some thing out..

the bigest expence is the plain tiket..

last year spent a week on a farm had the old farm / hunting lodge to my self.. well it was 5 of us.. shot a kudu and a mountin riebuck .. the hole thing cost £500.00 and then food and car rental on top of that.

 

[smithp18]

Hi 1820,
Interesting post,
Sounds like you and your mates have it sorted.
Unfortunately I go with the family and they like a little more comfort!!!

I have just been in touch with customs at Heathrow regards a temporary export certificate for the duration of a trip to SA which I needed last time for the sa520.

Now on my FAC it states under condition 9.

30-06 Rifle serial number xxxxxx and ammunition may also be carried when proceeding to or returning from a port of embarkation.

The customs officer at Heathrow says this is enough !

Can you or anybody confirm this I have asked the question to the SA embassy and waiting for a reply?

Thanks

Smithy

 

[shakari]

1820,
You say your biggest expense is your plane ticket....... if you hunt without a licenced PH and/or Outfitter and get caught, you'll find your biggest expense will be losing all your equipment including vehicles etc used for, during and/or to access the hunt, and legal fees to get you out of the jail they'll have put ou into when they caught you. Anyone else, including SA residents who might be with you will face similar penalties. The landowners who gave you permission to hunt will also face very severe penalties.......... so I hope you won't mind my pointing out that you'll be doing it at your peril.

I assume you buy your black powder and primers etc in SA. - In which case, that's not a problem, but I hope you won't mind me pointing out that if you take it with you and you get caught, you'll face considerably more severe penalties than mentioned above.

Smithp,

I think your referring to the proof of ownership requirement. In which case, your FAC will satisfy the SAP import requirements.

 

[shakari]

1820,

Without meaning to sound insulting at all, can I add that not only is doing what you suggest asking for trouble, but admitting to doing it on a public forum that is no doubt monitored by various people and agencies at least part of the time, is asking for even more trouble.

 

[smullery]

Smithy,

If you are a UK resident then all you need to get your "sporting firearms" out of and back into the UK is your FAC, period.

At the SA end you need your completed SAP520, your passport, FAC, letter of invitation by outfitter and proof of return flight (e ticket OK).

I provide photocopies of the above "as a courtesy" and it goes down well. Black and white is best as "colour" looks too much like "original".

Never had a problem at Jo'burg.

Stan

 

[smithp18]

Hi Stan,
Thanks for clearing this issue up,
I will follow your advice and photocopy the relevant docs for them at SA.


smithy

 

[smullery]

Smithy,

Last time I was down in August their photocopier wasn't working. people wandering off trying to find a copy service

I assume that you already have the OK (in writing) from your airline for your firearm?

Other thing to check is how your airline "handles" it at Jo'burg. Some airlines take it straight to the SAPS office, others stack them on the floor in the luggage area with a "security" person sat in a chair. You point to your case and they take it to the SAPS office.

Saw three Danes who came in on Lufthansa waiting in the SAPS office. Their PH was doing the usual Afrikaans thing of shouting louder at the police. I pointed out to him that there were three rifle cases in the arrivals hall. Instant silence and off with his clients to collect.

Coming back is easy. You check in and a security guy comes to you. Off to and office or even corridor,check of serial numbers and hand over your permit. Job done. Last time they were that busy he didn't even check my rifles.

Stan

 

[smithp18]

Hi Stan,
Going with Virgin, done all the checks and they are aware that I will be caring a firearm and to expect me, when booking the flights they have added notes to my reservation so to speed up the checking in process before I wonder off to customs.
Last time I went with swiss air who were very good.

Smithy

 

[smullery]

Smithy,

Start a new thread on your return to update on procedures at LHR and also how Virgin handle the JNB end.

I'm off down on 4th April with Air France. Hopefully no changes.

Stan

 

[smithp18]

Hi Stan,
Sounds like a good idea,
I have been on to Virgin re there handling protocol for firearms now wait a reply on that,
I now have an email confirming that I will be carrying a rifle from them.

Thanks and have a good trip

Smithy

 

[smullery]

Smithy,

When you going down?

I'll be back into UK on 13th April. Will ask Virgin in JNB if they take firearms direct to SAPS office or expect you to identify first and then they take to SAPS.

I DO KNOW that Air France luggage labels on ALL your luggage identify it as FIREARMS from UK - CDG - JNB and is treated as such. They expect you to have ammo even if you don't. On the return they assume you are not an idiot and are only bringing your firearms back.

Stan

 

[deerwarden]

Afica 2009

Three of us travelled with Air France to Jburg last year, two of us had airline approved cases which were damaged in transit resulting in claims for a Leopuld scope[mine] and a mates binns. His claim was rejaected as his binns were not part of his firearm and in their opinion should not have been in case, 7 months later 28 phone calls and a small claims threat of £780.00 my claim was paid. Prior to that we had to download a form via fax for permission to travel with firearms, then fill a three page further request at Heathrow at the booking in desk. This year we flew with SAA, just arrived booked in firearms as luggage then to security etc, no problems at all, they want us to travel with them. One guy went previously with Virgin had same experiance as SAA. In our experiance, flying with Air France was a unpleasant experiance, we also had to fly to Degaule airport for a transfer both ways. Our P.H. has never had clients with problems With SAA. deerwarden.

 

[sikamalc]

Have to say I fly with SAA everytime I go to Africa, direct flight if at all possible.

The one time I didnt was with BA, they lost the guns at JoBurg, left them on the runway, total bloody idiots. Luckily we got the guns back and proceeded from Vic Falls.

 

[smullery]

For the past five trips I've given Air France customer services a phone call and they've taken firearm details. Next day I get a new copy of my e-ticket with the authority and details on it. Same with KLM from Humberside via Amsterdam.

I avoid Heathrow like the plague so predominately travel via Amsterdam but on the Joburg route has better timings by going via Paris.

Only damaged firearms cases I have seen are "non moulded" ones where you have a frame with inset panels. Luggage is supposed to take the knocks but constructed cases seem to get a panel pushed in.

Stan